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May 16, 2023

ABC: Knowing God Chapter 11

This week we discuss chapter 11 of Knowing God by J.I. Packer. During this episode we talk about the central premise of Packer's book, which is to know God through interaction with Him and learning about Him and how important it is to follow His Word regardless of what our own selfish desires may want. Through knowing that God is truth, and that there can be nothing but truth from God - we learn not only a lot about how we as humans should live but more about Who God is himself.

Use Your Words podcast is passion project of two people from Southeastern Wisconsin. Please consider checking out the below links to learn/hear more. And join us every week for new episodes!

Linktree: https://bit.ly/uywlinktree

Visit our website: https://useyourwords.cc

Listen to the podcast on all of your devices: https://useyourwordspod.captivate.fm/listen

Watch On Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@useyourwords

Send us an email: https://www.useyourwords.cc/contact

Read the blog: https://www.useyourwords.cc/blog

This week we discuss chapter 11 of Knowing God by J.I. Packer. During this episode we talk about the central premise of Packer's book, which is to know God through interaction with Him and learning about Him and how important it is to follow His Word regardless of what our own selfish desires may want. Through knowing that God is truth, and that there can be nothing but truth from God - we learn not only a lot about how we as humans should live but more about Who God is himself.

Use Your Words podcast is passion project of two people from Southeastern Wisconsin. Please consider checking out the below links to learn/hear more. And join us every week for new episodes!

Linktree: https://bit.ly/uywlinktree

Visit our website: https://useyourwords.cc

Listen to the podcast on all of your devices: https://useyourwordspod.captivate.fm/listen

Watch On Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@useyourwords

Send us an email: https://www.useyourwords.cc/contact

Read the blog: https://www.useyourwords.cc/blog



For joining us on this week's episode of Use Your Words  Podcast. My name is Paul and today we're going to be covering Chapter 11 of J I Packers knowing God. Now, originally these episodes were typically two chapters each episode. But by the time we get done talking about these episodes, which at the beginning of this one, you'll say you'll see that. We, um said that there's not much in it that they're pretty light episodes. Well, they're not light at all, apparently because at the end of the recording session, we realized we were on about two hours of raw recording time for the two chapters. So we decide to go ahead and split them up and have them, uh, come out one this week and then chapter 12 will come out in three weeks. 

Now, the reason we're doing that is that there's two episodes right here at the end of May that we do want to come out back to back and they will be coming out and we'll have a little, I guess a few seconds, few clips of that episode at the end of this episode, we won't be giving anything away as far as what we'll be talking about in that episode, but we will have that, uh kind of a little preview for you uh there. So next two weeks are gonna be a special episode and then we'll go from there and continue on doing what we do. So thank you for joining us this week and we hope to see you next week for what may be a very interesting conversation. Thanks for joining us on this week's episode of user words podcast. This week we're going over chapters 11 and 12 now that I can correct myself and not say 10 and 11. Like I've been saying all this time of knowing God by J I Packer. 

As Aaron had learned recently, it's not Packard, it's not Packard, it's Packer Packer like now 11 and 12 is, um, so we're doing these two chapters. Now, what we're doing is gonna start doing a little bit different. Going forward from this month forward is only doing two chapters a month because going back through the last like month and a half, two months of editing, we were doing four chapters which is two sessions a month, plus some song, which left us those three sessions that were just book of music and only one session for something else, didn't leave us a lot of time to do anything else. So it'll take us a little bit longer to go through the book. I have a feeling for the next book will probably adjust the reading schedule a little bit. So it doesn't take like a whole year to go through a book. Yes. This is no longer than I expected. Yeah. And, and, and we might start adjusting, we might bring it up to three chapters, uh, a session. 

We don't know, we haven't talked about that yet. So I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna make any changes without first discussing this with Aaron because this isn't a dictatorship. This is a thing where we both have equal say on things and everything. So. Yeah. Mhm. What's that for? Do we have to have festivus now? Festivus. Oh, you know what that is? Oh my goodness. So quick, quick tangent on that. 

Festivus is from Seinfeld. Uh So it was for people who didn't celebrate Christmas or Hanukkah. I think it was Festus. Festivus for the rest of us. It were part of festivus. Is that you aired your grievances? God. So, I was like, do we have to have festiv us right now? Do we need to air some grievances that I don't know about yet? Yes. Ok. I'm kidding. Ok. No. So we got chapters 11 and 12 of knowing God. And these chapters I'm not gonna pretend to speak for Aaron, but they're very, they're like the last two chapters. They're pretty lightweight. They're, there's, they're lightweight but there is a lot that's covered in them. Yeah. But not as much as maybe some of the first few chapters of this book. Why, why, why, why that look of relief on you? I don't know. I was just part of me was like, as I was like reading it, I was just like, man, I hope there's just like, not a bunch that I'm just not getting which pro I mean, there probably is or just not a ton that's really just like standing out to me and then you're gonna come and you need to have 10 pages of notes and be like, what about this and this and this and that? And I'd be like, oh, no, so, ok, cool. 

Yeah, I, I, I found it pretty light. I, I read over it over this, this past week a couple of times just to make sure because the first time I went through it I was like, man, I'm like, getting nothing from it. I was like, it's, it, it almost for me, it almost felt like a filler arc. Ok. Do you know what that means? Right. Well, I guess filler, I'm just thinking, I'm just throwing stuff in there to use up. 

Yeah, stuff that's maybe relevant but you're fluffing it up with some words. I'm thinking like in a, like an anime or a cartoon series, uh, filler arc would be like a story that has no main connection to the main story that's just there to take up time and space. Ok. That's what I'm thinking like as a filler. Now, there's some stuff that connects back to some of the main things. But for the most part I was like, yeah, this is just filler. 

This is just, it's there. It's where to kind of get us to think a little bit. Maybe some more and then, but there's some good parts in it. So. All right. Chapters. 11 and 12. So, first off, there's a couple of things that I want to before we even get into it. 

There's, there's a word in here that was like, I wonder if no, I don't. Um, what word? Ok. I am probably gonna miss, I'm gonna, probably gonna butcher this word completely. Say what page is it on? I don't know what page it's on. 

Uh, because again, I'm running Kindle versus your thing, but I'm gonna type it on the screen here. Oh, ok. I looked that word up. Well, how do you say this word is my question? Inimical. Inimical. Ok, I think. Yeah, that sounds that sure. 

Let's go with it. That sounds good. What did you, uh, I don't remember, I looked it up as I was like, as I read it and I was like, oh, ok. Ok. Do I remember what it was? Yeah, I gotta find it again though. But no, um, I, it, it's to obstruct or harm. 

Uh, the word is inimical I N I M IC A L however, that's spelled however, that said however, that spelled I just spelled it however that said. Yeah. So, ok. I, I was just wondering, that was one that I, I, I kind of highlighted and then I wrote down the meaning of it. So that way I would have it and be like Aaron. What does this mean? Nice. Yeah. Going back to the days of Aaron's Word of the week. There's so many. All right. So chapter 11 was called Thy Word is Truth. OK. Correct. What, what stuck, stuck out to you about this chapter? Was there anything in particular about this chapter or maybe even just, what is your, what is Aaron's summary of this chapter? Oh, no. Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. 

Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, I don't, I don't, I don't have anything written out for a good summary of the chapter. Actually, I thought about doing that though as I read it, I thought about like quick, like going over each page. I was like, all right. So, or like, if it had a section that bled into the next page, I'd just combine it or whatever, but just kind of like, write down quick notes on. All right. This is what I was getting from this page, but I didn't do that yet. All right. That, that's what I, I didn't, I didn't tell you to write a summary. 

I was just wondering if you had one. That's what I said. What are your thoughts on this? Chapter. What stuck out to you? What's a summary? What I mean, what revelations, what thoughts did you have while you're reading this chapter? 

I got some stuff throughout it because like I said, there was some stuff in here that was good. Some stuff that was interesting one that I had a, uh, oh, oh, yeah, we'll get there. Ok. Because I have something that has, I, I wrote you down on the side when I got to a section of it. I was like, hm, I wonder what Paul would have to say about this one. I wonder if it's the same thing I underlined. You did. We'll find out, let's get there. All right. Um, and I did find it funny. 

I, I noticed there's like a weird little like Ty Boe thingy in my book. Well, not, not like the, the M and humankind and this one word, whatever, like the middle line of the m that comes down is missing. Oh, ok. So it just, yeah, it's just an error in the printing. Um, yeah. Yeah, that happens. All right. Small stuff. That's what really stood out to me in this whole chapter. Ok. Um, no, like the first thing I have underlined is on page 1 10, which is the second page of the chapter. Ok. Um, so I guess I'll just start from the beginning of the paragraph. 

Um, well, the word of which God addresses directly to us is then in parentheses. Like a royal speech only more so than parentheses. Um You know what, I'm gonna reread that and not even read the parentheses part. So, ok, so the word which God addresses directly to us is an instrument, not only of government, but also of fellowship. And then the section I have underlined as for though God is a great king, it is not his wish to live at a distance from his subjects being us. 

Um, rather the reverse. He made us with the intention that we, that he and we might walk together forever in a love relationship. But such a relationship can exist only when the parties involved know something of each other. And I mean, I don't know that. Well, I guess it really, honestly the whole paragraph. 

I was like, oh, cool. Um, and then there's something out in line, a few lines below where it says, therefore, God sends his word to us in the character of both information and invitation which we, uh oh, well, yeah, that's the thing before I liked how it gave like the, uh, um, the, like the different, was it different, like types of writing or whatever or where it talks about testimony and the promise and instruction kind of stuff? Um, I've never thought of like when, while reading the Bible of like those different, I guess. What, what, what would you call that? I don't know. My brain small. Not it is, it would, that is that like a style of writing or like it. 

Well, so like Law Promise Testament are very different. They're not, they're different styles. Yes. But more so they're different. Um probably said no, it doesn't say it in there. Um They, they're different purposes of the writing, I would say. Yeah. So this part, this part, this purpose is the testimony. 

This is information given by God by himself and people, this part part is about a promise. This part is law, you know what you should and should do. And it's, that's something that I think modern Christianity has lost in a way. Um And part of it is our English language as me and you were talking about earlier, you know, we in English translate certain words in Hebrew to be the same English word. And so therefore, we ascribe those same as English speakers, right? We ascribe those same characteristics to all those things. 

When in Hebrew, they're completely different. And, and, and you're like, when you get back down to it, the core of it, you're like, oh, I didn't realize it was, you know, more severe over here and less severe over here. And this over here means it was part of a holiness code. This over here was part of a cultural code. And then you're like, why that wasn't communicated to me? 

Well, and it's a again part of our English translation, we were English to be fair and honest is horrible at conveying some thoughts because English at times is not specific enough, it is too generalized in certain instances in certain ways which, which is why it is easy to miss misconstrue what someone says potentially sometimes when they're speaking to English, especially if you don't know the tone because you need that tone. How are we being given everything in the Bible? We're giving everything really without tone. It's like reading a big long text message and trying to figure out the angry parts, the happy parts and the sad parts and it's not easy to do that. And you're wondering why the person on the other side is all upset with you when they're happy and they're excited about something. 

Yeah, they're not angry. Exactly. And you think they're angry, it's because there's no tone and you know, that that's part of, you know, kind of what the Hebrew did it. There was a distinction between the different words of, hey, this should be a bad sort of thing, you know, and there was words that kind of, you know, inherent in the word itself. It was saying, hey, this is a bad thing. This is a good thing. But we might have translated in English as rock. OK. You know, so that, that's, that's part of just English being as weird as it is and part of why people, you know, yes, we read the Bible scripture alone, but it does help to understand the historical context and maybe some of the original words in there that are referencing back to it. 

I'm not saying you have to be a Hebrew scholar, a Greek scholar, a mesopotamian scholar or anything like that, take the Bible for what it is. And then if you want to dig into some of that stuff because you're like, this doesn't make sense why this and this and this maybe take a little bit time to dig into those specific areas. And then you start seeing, oh, this part is Cultural law. This part is, you know, purity co not purity law but like um holiness code, this part is societal code. This part is this, this part is this, oh Jesus reaffirms the holiness code but doesn't reaffirm the societal code. Oh OK. Now there's differences going on. 

Now we know why some stuff from the Old Testament like blended fabrics is no longer an abomination. Why eating self shellfish is no longer an abomination? Why we can eat pork network? Mm Because if you read all that in the Old Testament, it's like abomination abo you shall not, you shall not. And then you get to the New Testament because like basically says I didn't make unclean food and you know, and just, there's, there's a lot there, but we don't have to get into that right now. But that, that's why I'm saying, you know, there's different types just like in the Bible itself, there's poetry, there's allegory, there's stories there's law, there's basically, like historical documents, there's different types of literature, different genres of literature found within it. And each one while, yes, it is an inspired God, breathed Word of God. But each one might be read a little bit differently. Like you're gonna read a poem like Psalms differently than you read the genealogy or instruction like Leviticus. 

You know, where it gives all the laws and that you're gonna read those differently just naturally because you read different genres differently. Mhm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it's just because it's a different genre and you read it maybe a little bit differently does not pull any of the truth of it away from what it is. Mhm. Uh, what, uh, that's where I, I guess, I mean, yeah, starting is important and spending time reading and that's pretty much, I mean, that's what was kind of, well, I mean, there's a, I think there's a few, quite a few sections in here. 

It's like, er, and this is why, you know, being, you know, I guess, was it well consistent with being in the word and whatnot and regularly in the word is why it's so important because, I mean, we're, and from that little section that I just read but it's like, but such a relationship can only exist when parties, when the parties involved, uh, know something of each other. That's how we get to know God ending with time in his word. That is the central premise of Packer's book is doing these things to know God because like He points out in this chapter already, God already knows us right from the moment we're conceived, right? You know, he knows everything about us. OK? The only way we get to know about Him is through interaction with him, learning about Him, knowing him in that regard. So that's why it's like that's why his, his central thesis keeps coming back about this is how, you know, God better because that's obviously the chapter, the title of the book, but not the chapter of the time. Yeah. So yeah, I mean, I had that for that but I don't know. I uh think, what do I have? 

Oh, this was OK. I had underlined a word. Did I look that up? I might have but yeah, I definitely did but I don't remember how to uh po po potentate. 

Potentate P O T E NTA T E potency. Isn't that it? P O T E NTA. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, P O T E NTA T E Pot and Date. Oh Potent Potent Date. 

I don't remember what that meant, but I looked that one up. There was so many words that I end up looking up. I'm like, oh, what does this mean? I'm like, oh OK. And then now I've already forgotten them. Um How does this even potentate? Oh, I know. I remember it. It's like uh like a, a, oh, ok. 

Hold up, hold up, hold up. Like a person of power, great power or whatever. A monarch, a monarch or ruler, especially an autocratic one. Here we go. Boom. Yeah, I just had to read the sentence again. 

Amazing what happens when you read sentences around it. Right. Yeah. Oh, yeah, it makes a big difference. Um, yeah, this is where, yeah, God was talking about Jeremiah. Um, yeah, I don't know, I had that underlined otherwise I didn't have anything else underlined until like the next page um where it starts to talk about. 

Well, it's the mark of true humility. Um uh Do you have you had but do you have and really what I've had up until this point has been close to what you've had here. So for example, before the God speaks to us, not only to move us to do what he wants, but to enable us to know Him. So we may, we may love him right in line with what you had there, right? And everything else. So that sounds like there's really not much else. Again, these chapters are not deep, deep heavy chapters and in some way, it's also uh where are you at? 

Spiritually, some of some of these things are rudi rudimentary and things that you just kind of review some of it. Not so much that and that's ok. You know, each person is gonna be at, at their own place on things even between me and you, we're gonna be at different places and different, different aspects of things. And that's ok. But is it ok? Yes, it is. Ok. Yeah. Um, yeah, the thing I, so I guess, I guess just to have, say the next thing I have underlined here, go for, um, says the mark of humility and godliness. 

On the other hand, is that a person trembles at my word that I guess is uh has a 66 2. Um oh, because yeah, just beforehand. Oh, the oh, and that was another word. I had to look, look up. So the essence of impiety was the proud willfulness of these wicked people who refused to listen to my words and the mark of true humility and godliness. On the other hand, is that a person trembles at my word. Hm hm. Yeah. So, and this, and this is where he's kind of delving into the whole three parts of the Torah, the law, the testimony in that, right? 

Which I don't know why, but I never thought of the word testimony of just being like used. It's like for information. Oh, you never thought of it that way, huh? No, I literally whenever I hear the word testimony, I always think of all right. So what's your story as, as far as like becoming you, what's your testimony of becoming a Christian sort of thing? Like that's the only other like that's the only way for the longest time I always thought about it was like testimony. OK. That's your story of how you became a Christian. 

I was like no testimony. There's a lot of other things. Yeah. So the way I think I've always thought about testimony is the story of how you become a Christian is part of it, right? But the way I think of it more generally is how is the story of how God has shown His grace and his power in your life in whatever the situation it may be. It may be a salvation story. But it also may be a hey, I was uh insert something here, drug addict, whatever. Yeah. And he and he brought me out of it and maybe it wasn't a, a salvation story because maybe it was like I fell away and I need to be brought back sort of, you know, and in a way that, that, that comes back to what he says and here information given about God about himself and people, it's not just about himself, it's about himself and people and then their interactions and how God interacts and intervenes in their lives with them. Hm. So yeah, glad you. 

I'm glad you learned something then slowly but surely, man. There you go. Yeah. So the next segment then I had one thing underlined here and this is before we got to like the bolded number one here. Oh, ok. Yeah. Yeah. So the, the paragraph starts truth in the Bible is a quality of a person's primarily in a prop propositions only secondarily, I think I almost want to say for portions, I don't know, I myself, I was like the, the, the, the it means stability, reliability, firmness, trustworthiness, the quality of a person who is entirely self consistent since you're realistic, undeceived. OK. So all that to get to the part that I highlighted, which is God is such a person. 

Truth in this sense is his nature and he has not gotten him to be anything else. By the way, his English is just drives me nuts. It's so rough to read. This is I, I, I, I read it and I go, I want to apply an A I algorithm to this to clean up his language. I'm like, oh bring it to modern English buddy, but he can't because he's dead. 

There's no no remakes of this book come out. They could remake it, but they would recommend it. No remakes without the author is not recommended. So I highlight that and then in the next section where it says God's commands are true. 

I highlighted this and I'll tell you why. So I highlight it, it shows us what we were made to be and teaches us how to be truly human and warns us against moral self destruction. This is a matter of great importance and one which calls for much consideration at the present time and you're like, wait why, why did you highlight that? Right? So this segment is called God's commands are true. And obviously he uses a psalm here and he does it like every, I guess you could say Bible based book out there in the world where they like, oh, this, this verse fits exactly what I want. 

Let me lift it, put it here. Da da, da. No context, right? You know it goes, all your commands are true. OK? There's, there's a psalm cool. Um OK, fine. Whatever. Personally, I would prefer there be more context and a little more analysis on that. But then this book would be like three times what it already, you know, but it says, why are they so described, what is they in this case? Commands and why are they described as true? Oh OK. So now I get it and basically he's going through and talking about like this about what is truth in this regard. And he goes back to that because they have stability and permanence as setting forth what God wants to see in human lives and every age. OK? Unchanging truths, blah, blah. So that's why I highlight that part. It shows us what we were made to be and teach us how to be truly human in our words, to follow these things, which God said, which are true, timeless, unchanging no matter the circumstances, even though you know, it was written to people living in little huts, you know, way back when in the desert, in that, you know, marching and living as a group of people to now people living in skyscrapers, the principles behind it all remains the same regardless of the age. 

Yes, things may be different than how we interact on how we communicate. Obviously, now we can use cell phones and that we don't have to, you know, send people via messenger on the donkey or send smoke signals or, you know, do whatever, attach a letter to a bird's foot and hope it gets there. Exactly. We don't have to do that anymore. But the, even though the times have changed the concept of the what? That is true still remains the same. So that's why I highlighted that there. Yeah. And then of course, I underlined the, the word then inimical or what was that? Where that, where it is? 

Yeah, it's under number one, close to number two, the paragraph before number two. Ok. Oh, man, this is, this is just me being dumb. Um, but I put a little mark next to a few lines and just wrote L O L. All right. What were the lines? So we are familiar with the thought that our bodies, bodies are like machines needing the right routine of food, rest and exercise. 

If they are to run efficiently and liable, filled up with the wrong fuel. I just love how it went to alcohol, drugs and poison. Um, and then it goes on to say, to lose their power of healthy functioning and ultimately to seize up entirely in physical death. Um And I just loved as soon as I read alcohol, I was like, man. Um But it's kind of funny because also I was just at a, had a worship night. Uh Well, Thursday night because I was, I didn't know that May 4th is the National Day of Prayer. 

Apparently never knew that May the force be with you. Um But it was, it was, uh this guy had done some speaking and he had gotten into talking about how, you know, like the whole like the body is a temple sort of thing. So, so often I like to just kind of shrug that off and not think about it. But it's like, oh, that scared me. Um It, it's a little convicting for me, I suppose. Um As far as taking care of myself physically, I guess because yeah, I'm not too good at that. 

I try it for a while and then I get distracted by food and other lazy routines. Me, me and you both like me and you both. So, but I was just like, so as soon as I read that I was like, that's funny. But then, um also so, but then it goes, it goes on um where, where uh I want, I have under uh let me start the sentence before as rational persons, we are made to bear God's moral image. Uh that is our souls were made to run on the practice of worship. 

Law keeping truthfulness, honesty, discipline, self-control and service to God and our fellows. If we abandon these practices, not only do we incur guilt before God, we also progressively destroy our own souls conscious. OK. That's, that's, well, it's just conscious, conscious or conscience. Yeah, I always freak out when I get to that where I'm like, oh, conscience, conscious, conscious atrophies. The sense of shame, dry, the sense of shame dries up one's capacity for truthfulness, loyalty and honesty is eaten away. One's character disintegrates. That's, that's terrifying. Um, one not only becomes desperately miserable, one is steadily being dehumanized and I guess why I can't think of, um, where this was in the Bible, like, were when I've had conversations with dad. But this, he, he's brought up in the past from some sort of conversation how it's like we as Christians like we can. 

Is it was it, was that as, oh, I'll have to go back and talk to them about this. But it's like you can kind of lose that, uh, well, the guilty conscience thing and stray further from the spirit and then get to a point where you don't feel them anymore and there's no conviction and stuff and that's, I don't know why that made me think. Well, I mean, that made me think of it where, so how we progressively destroy our own souls sort of thing. I was just like, hm, I think you're thinking of Timothy. Ok. Yep. Speaking lies in hypocrisy having their conscience seared with a hot iron. There it is. Uh, this is King James version. 

This is the one I just found. Yeah. Uh, but that's probably what you're thinking of because that is, that is a concept that is out there of, you know, hey, you, and, and, and this is just more than people that are Christians too. This isn't a Christian only thing, but it's like, hey, you know, it's like, hey, I got it right with this. That's cool. Um Yeah, and it doesn't bother you as more as much every time you do something that's something every time you don't get caught with it because then you're like, oh yeah, I can just go ahead and do this and um get that uh I guess short term pleasure from whatever it may be, right? Um And then about so you had to go to go on from uh that one thing. So not one, not only becomes desperately miserable, one is steadily being dehumanized. 

This is one aspect of spiritual death. And then they say Richard Baxter was right to formulate the alternatives as a saint or a brute that ultimately is the only choice and everyone sooner or later consciously or unconsciously opts for one or the other. Um Yeah, that, that makes me think of all of the conversations that happen where it's like, you know, oh, you just can be somewhere in between. It doesn't have to be one or the other sort of deal. And, yeah, I guess there can be those, like, well, that gray area in between where it's like for people, but it's just you either going, I guess the whole, like, you're either going forward or backwards, you never just stay in one spot and stay there. So it's either working towards the whole spiritual death side of things, the brute or for those, that, um, what I guess that that's a weird thing to think of, like, for other religions and stuff like that, like, they can always work at being obedient to whatever they're doing for the real, for their religion. But what does I guess their religion teach them? 

This is a question at the end and see that's the thing. Unless you either a know someone in that religion or study it yourself, you're not going to know that. And that's why I don't know a ton of different ones because if, if I'm going to study, I'm gonna dedicate primarily time towards Christianity. What I believe in right now, if I have free time where I'm like, I really have a question about this, then I might spend some time thinking about or reading up on different things. But even in Christianity, there's so much craziness that goes, there's arguments about pre millennial, post millennial, mid tribulation. There's arguments. Calvinism. Armenians Palla, mid Palla, all these other things. 

I don't even know what that is yet. Um, there's all these things that go on and you're like, hold on. We don't even have it all together in here. Right. And, you know, and even then, you know, like, you know, I, I'm sure if I said out Packer we would probably disagree on a bunch of stuff and he would probably be like, I, I don't think he'd be like, you're a brute. Uh You know, you're working your way there. 

You know, there, there definitely some be some parts that disagree with him on and disagree with. I just, I definitely disagree with a lot of uh Calvinists on uh which Packer is that, that, that, that's become very clear and that's fine. I'm, I'm not, I'm not like some people that go well, Packer is a, well, I shouldn't say Packard specifically but like, I know some people mother um throwing her head on the bus who, who basically like denounce Calvinist as atheist and Satanist. Oh, wow. Like she's not even willing to be like, no, this isn't like an inter family debate. This is a, no, they're so wrong that mother, it's ok. 

If they have a different view on things, they have some ways to back it up, you know. So I'm like, it's ok, we'll live, they'll live. It was funny. I did, I did see uh so uh someone post on Instagram on their Instagram story of like, oh, so you're a Calvinist? And they're like, no. And then something about they just like their Bible believing Christians or whatever. Oh, so you're a Calvinist? I'm like, really? Yeah. So it's like, come on there, there's a group out there apoe Apologia Studios. 

I like a lot of their stuff. Ok. But they are very, very hardcore Calvinist. And basically that's their stance, like, oh, you're a Bible believing Christian. Therefore you're a Calvinist. 

I'm like, no, I, I'm not, he's like, oh, then you don't believe the Bible like that, that's the thing. And I'm like, hold on, we're gonna disagree on this part here. OK? But a lot of their other stuff I do, I definitely do agree on. I just don't agree on those things. That's fine. You know, that's, they can find out they're wrong later, you know. 

Honestly, it's probably a combination between the two, you know, but I'm not so hard core, I'm like in my way or it's like, ok, this is this supposed to be about you and this is where I think is, is leading. But, hey, prove me wrong, right. Say as long as, as I, I suppose as long as you have the gospel part, right? And well, and that's the fun part with Calvinist. That's where like we even disagree on certain things and not, not disagree on the gospel per se, but we're not gonna revisit this, I'll just say this quickly and then move on because I don't want to, this will take a long time. But you know where the covin is that you can't even be saved unless God already has drawn you to him. Right? Or, you know, the more Armenia type of way is like, no God died for and that's like that limited atonement thing or in, in, in the tulip. But I, I like, no, it's God died. 

Jesus died for everyone. So anyone could be saved this sort of deal. And they're like, well, no, no, no, Jesus only died for these people. I'm like, so that's where you reach this logical fallacy then where it's like, so then Jesus only died for certain people. Right? And I mean, guess in my mind that would kind of get rid of the whole purpose of even evangelizing to some degree. Yeah. And, and the guy from studios, he's like, well, he goes, here's why I evangelize because I have 100% success rate because I, because then it's, if God does it, he does it, if he doesn't, he doesn't. 

He's like, that's like, it, it's a weird, it's a weird logical jump he has to make to make it seem right. But interesting, regardless. Just because I disagree with him on that doesn't mean I think he's like an evil person or anything. I, I just, like I said, just, this is an inter family sort of conversation that, like, I would still be willing to sit down and have a drink with them, whatever their drink of choice may be, but alcohol is destructive. I guarantee you those guys drink, I guarantee you. Um But I would have a drink with them. 

I'd have a conversation and we would just disagree on this and that'd be fine. You know, this uh one of the guys I listen to um Mike Winger, you know, he definitely is not Calvinistic. He actually has some videos on why he says Calvinism isn't biblical and everything. And he's like, hey, I love these guys over at studios. He's like, really disagree. He's like, but I call him a brother and I'd have, I, I would echo that sentiment but then, you know, but anyways, I don't want to go down too much on the Calvinism Box. Uh Reform Theology is interesting. I do. Yeah, I did also online um which I had to look up this word to, but I had an idea of what it meant. 

I just wanted to confirm but where it talks about sexual laxity does not make you more human but less so it brutalizes you and tears your soul to pieces. I was like, man, that's pretty, pretty intense. And like, so beforehand, I was talking about how so nowadays some will maintain in the name of humanism that the Puritan in quotes uh sexual morality of the Bible is, oh, the inimical inimical to the attainment of true human maturity and that the little more and that a little more license makes for richer living. I've definitely seen on Twitter guys that proclaim that they're Christian pastors basically teach this sort of statement. Yeah. And like, they're like, well, purity culture is destructive. 

You need to go do this and, oh, premarital sex isn't a thing that's bad for you at all. Go ahead and do it. And one of the guys he al he not always but frequently starts his Twitter statements with my dude. He's trying to be condescending. Essentially. He for a while, had his screen name as doctor Deltoids. 

Doctor Deltoids and then, and then his, and his real name after it. Um Yeah, because his picture that he had up on Twitter, you know, pastor so to speak, uh was him in like a tank top and you just see like his, you know, his Del Toys and he has a podcast called Jack Theology and it's Jesus Weightlifting. So that's cute. Yeah, he, the reason he made it was he's gonna say, oh, we're gonna talk about things that are bad for theology, but really he's just promoting liberal theology such as stuff like this and that. And it's, we'll talk about that more later. Ok. Oh, ok. Um, because, uh, yeah, I just, uh hm. 

Oh, I'm sorry, the uh the word that I had to look was Lax City though. Oh, ok. I wanted to make sure I, I thought it was kind of like, just like, kind of being, like, lazy with it. But it was so when I looked up like, one of the words that used in the, um, definition was a looseness. Yeah. So I'm just kind of being loose within a careless whatever sexual promiscuity. Mhm. Yeah. Ok. That's, I don't like that word more. Yeah. But when you think of promiscuous, promiscuous, that looseness. Yeah. Yep. Yeah, sexual promiscuity does not make you more human. It fits right there with the sentence. Yes, it does. That's just another big word. Ok. Aaron like small word. 

Aaron likes my little word dude. Trick. Got it. Um But yeah, otherwise like the next thing was the section that I thought I was like, hm, I wonder what Paul has, what his remarks would be on this? All right, before we get to that section because I think I know what it is. So um I want to hear he says people sneered today at the promise boxes which our grandparents used. Do you know what those were? 

I don't, I, I, I did, didn't think he did. So I brought this up on the screen here. Promise boxes were essentially little boxes with little cards with scriptures, little prayers in them that you would pull out and just read and for encouragement in that, that's literally all they were. So like maybe like there's like a little promise on the front and then a scriptural reference on the back. So like here as I was with Moses, so I shall be with thee and then it'll have like a little on the back. So very basically like little promises of God that he gave throughout the Bible and maybe some prayers and obviously you can get one in each version of the Bible that you use. 

The one I have on screen here just happens to be King James version because it was the first one that I found. But anyways, I wanted to bring that up because I, I didn't know if you knew what that was. All right. So I'm curious now to, to know this, this, this phrase to see if it's the same one that I, oh, a phrase. Well, it's just like a whole section, a whole section. OK. Um It was mainly this uh one paragraph where uh a fixed constant attention to the promises and a firm belief of them would prevent. Oh gosh, why can't I say these words solicitude or so solicitude? 

So, yeah, whatever, solicitude and anxiety about the concerns of this life. It would keep the mind quiet and composed in every change and support and keep up our sinking spirits under the several, several troubles of life. Christians deprive themselves of their most solid comforts by their unbelief and forgetfulness of God's promises for. There is no extremity so great, but there are, but there are promises suitable to it and abundantly sufficient for our relief in it. And then there's also that next paragraph in the, but I don't remember, well, a thorough acquaintance with the promises would be of the greatest advantage in prayer with what comfort may the Christian a address himself to God in Christ when he considers the repeated assurances that his prayers shall be heard with how much satisfaction may he offer up the several desires of his heart when he reflects upon the text where in those very mercies are promised? 

Gosh, I don't, I don't like how he, but this isn't him. This is uh this is a different person that's writing this and with, and with what Fervor was that? Fervor. Fervor um of spirit and strength of faith. May he enforce his prayers by pleading the several gracious promises which are expressively to his case expressly? Oh, yeah. Where did I get to express the way I get random letters and words? All right. So that's the, the, the part that you thought it all. Oh, dang it. So I have the wrong part. 

We don't have the same one. No, darn it. OK. So why did you? 

Well, it was it to me, like in my mind, I was thinking of the whole thing of um where I, I viewed it as like the whole thing with like mental health sort of thing where it's just like, then, you know, you should have no like anxiety or whatever as long as you are aware of the promises and whatnot of the Bible that God has made to us and whatnot. So, it's like, as Christians, like, we shouldn't have issues with that. But it's like, oh, we really do and with how the brain is right, there's some things that are kind of out of our control to some degree. So, sort of thing. One of the things when I, when I read things. Right. Yeah, I have to remind myself especially when you're dealing with books slightly older. So I'm talking before the nineties, even specifically before the nineties, the first edition of this came in like in the seventies. 

This is an old one. Ok. The thought of mental health and how it impacted wasn't really a big thing. No. Ok. Yeah, that's one two, the rapid rise of mental health issues has really gone up in the last 2025 years. It's actually kind of concerning seeing on the graph how, how much it's going up and part of me wonders, you know, is there something going on? Is there, is it social media? Yes. Part of social media is part of it. Um It, it what what else is contributing to it? Right. So definitely back when like things like this were written. So this book and I don't know when this book that Packer is quoting was written, right? Because that's not him. 

That's not, it's not Packer. It's this guy named um it was Samuel Clark there it is. Yep. So, whenever they wrote it, mental health wasn't even a consideration. Right. It, it, in fact, a lot of times people saw mental health issues as demonic possession or they had something wrong with their brain so much. So that back in the day people were, they were advertising people going to get lobotomies, like, as a normal thing, like, like, oh, is your woman crazy? She stressed out? Is she misbehaving, blah, blah, blah. Takes 10 seconds. We'll do a lobotomy and then she'll be happy and free and whatever afterwards, it was a big moneymaker for medical things. Right. It was the answer to all the problems. 

Well, it turns out it wasn't there, it was causing a lot of issues. Right. And so it wasn't something that was really on people's minds. It was, oh, there's something wrong with them or they're possessed or they're sick. It wasn't in and sick in the way of, like, not mentally sick but sick in other ways, you know, in our ways it would you sick? So, the fact is that now that we know about mental health, you kind of have to read these older books with that in mind that they don't, they didn't get it. No. That being said for those who don't deal with mental health issues, I would agree with this. 

I would agree with this 100% now, for like, someone like me who doesn't always have anxiety issues. Like, that's a, that's a rare thing for me thankfully, you know, for the most part I'm like, yeah, cool. I get it. I understand what you're getting at 100%. But for those who maybe have a mental health issue where anxiety is an issue or depression, whatever that part right there is not gonna describe them at all. That part. Right. There might actually be disheartening to them. Mhm. You know, just gotta pray it away, man. Yeah. OK. Um So I get that but I get at the same time when it was written in the context of which it was written. So I can't go back and say, well, these were evil people writing this because this wasn't even a thought. 

If this was something written now by someone, it would be a different, that's a different conversation then because like you, so you don't believe in mental health, you don't believe in mental health issues, whether it's spiritual or physi, physical or psychological issues that are causing this at that point, we need to have a conversation. It probably won't be a happy conversation, but it'll be a conversation nonetheless. And maybe it's something or they haven't been exposed to it or they grew up with a crazy family that believed the earth was flat and those flat earth. Oh dude, I, there's, there's a comedian that used to be on crowder's show on a frequent basis and no longer is, and it's because they had a falling out a while ago and, yeah, honestly, I think it's more the guy that he went crazy now. He's a flat earth or that. Oh, really? Yeah. Oh, yeah. So, Owen Benjamin, if you've ever heard of him, yeah, he, he calls his, uh, groups, uh, his bears because he, his little logo is a little teddy bear. 

So, all the people who follow them are the bears and, yeah, there's a whole, there's a whole long thing with him where he kind of rifted people for money and everything and he bought a, he ended up buying big property and farm. Honestly, I think he should be investigated for it and how he got the money because he promised a lot of things and then he goes, oh, no, no, no, no, you can't do that. And then, oh, yeah, just uh, oh, but he, yeah, he's a little crazy guy. But regardless of the fact, you know, it, it's, his kids will be like, oh, mental health doesn't exist because he's kind of that way. Like he, he has book burnings on his farm with his kids. 

I'm like, oh, this is gonna be one of those guys. Got it. Oh Jeez. Yeah. Oh jeez. Yeah. Yeah. So it back to what I was saying though. 

Um, you know, if it was someone like that who maybe grew up under, you know, a flat earth or type person, I say type person, you know, someone who doesn't believe in any evidence that they see contrary to things, then they, maybe they grew up with the idea that mental health wasn't a thing because this is those type of people. Sometimes they, they believe that, you know, it's really just all in your head. You just have to get over the mindset and everything will be good. But that's not the case all the time. So that's what I said, depending on the person that they have to have that conversation. But a person like this that far in the past. 

Yeah, they didn't know. I, I don't hold them to it. I, I, I just, I kind of read it as this. This is the, this is kind of how you would like it to be in an ideal world, but here's reality. Now, I'm curious though. So, what did you have? What section did you underline? All right. So, so base also, let me just, um, so this book was Samuel Clark lived in 17 50 harry time frame. So this is definitely an old book that's a long time ago. So I just want to bring that up on how long ago that was? Ok. There's a long time ago here is the part that I, I highlighted. 

It's not that I purely disagree with it. I think his statement on it was odd and I would have liked it to be clarified, maybe a little bit more. It's under the, the heading, believe and obey. Yeah. OK. And it's this line, true Christians are people who acknowledge and live under the word of God. 

That, that, that's the whole phrase. Mhm The, the reason I, I kind of highlighted it that way and did that is because I know immediately from my way of thinking of things, you know, remember programmer person who likes to think of things that statement loan and, and being a Christian, I know isn't true because he says true Christians. OK. True Christians are people who acknowledge and live under the word of God. There's nothing there about, you know, fo you know, believing in God salvation or nothing like that. 

It's just, it's acknowledgement who live and live under the word of God. I could live under the word of God 100% and never believe that's when I first read that. Actually, now that you mention that, I don't know and I don't know how um but instead of R I, for whatever reason in my head I read aren't. Mm So at first I was singing, I was like, well, yeah, I was like people that just wanna live by the word of God and just note like or like, well, yeah, as he says, acknowledge that he is there, my mind went to uh to the scripture where it talks about you like even the demons believe in God and what not. Oh, no, I guess are they living by the word of God. No. No. But so, but, and it made me, I mean, it's made me think of, like, conversations that I've, or a, uh, uh, I've had with someone before where it's where they want to live within, like, some, like the morals of Christianity and whatnot. But it was like that, that, that's it. 

Like, there's no wanting to pursue, um, to, well, a relationship with God and I guess, grow to know who God is more. It's just like, yeah, I'll just live like this and be, you know, the whole, like, good, I guess trying to live as a good human being sort of thing. But, yeah, and that's when I, you know, when I read that, that's how I think of that. And that's why I, I, I was just like, I, I know what he wanted to say and I know what he could have said. I know what he's trying to say. But if someone who and I know these people personally. Mhm. Ok. If someone who isn't a Christian were to pick up this book just by chance, right? 

They flip it, they find that phrase right. There they go. Well, well, no, I'm good. I'm good. I'm all right. So that's why I have that one highlighted and like, I don't like that phrasing right there. So that's the one I had highlighted. So I did write down below, uh below it. It was just like three words, uh that this pastor from lacrosse would always say and I, I mean, I liked it. 

Um, his name is Shane, Shane Holden. Um, I love the dude. I haven't, gosh, I haven't listened to anything by him for a long time now. Um, but hopefully he hasn't gone off the deep end. I hope not. Yeah, I know. I'm kind of curious. 

Maybe I have to check back in on him. Yeah. It's unfortunate that so many pastors do nowadays. But, yeah. Yeah. Anyway, what keeps in the, uh, you know, um, but his little saying was belong, believe, behave, behave. 

Uh, and when I just read the belief and obey sort of thing, it just made me think of that because that was one thing. He would always, he, well, he would tell the congregation is that, you know, it's like everyone belongs in the church and then, like, well, because it was, it was from something where it's like, you know, Chris or people that aren't Christians, like they don't fit in or belong with the people of the church or saying no, he's like you're wrong. It's like we're all hypocrites, we're all sinners. So I was like, we all belong sort of thing. And then it, um, for him, he's just like, you know, once, once you get, you know, kind of tied in sort of thing, it's like, hopefully at some point you start to believe and then you behave. But his thing was like, you know, you'll have Christians in the church or whatever where it's like, if, like, someone can only come into the church, if they behave the way as a Christian should behave sort of thing. He's like, uh, he's like they belong with us and once they start to believe they'll start to behave as a Christian sort of thing. 

So, I, I, I don't know. That's what that made me as soon as I saw the Believe and Obey. I was like, hm, I thought of that phrase. I've, I always liked that one because I was like, I, yeah, that, that is a sad thing where you have Christians in the church who are just like, well, you can come once you got your ducks in a row, sort of thing. 

That's so messed up. That is so messed up. And, yeah, maybe we'll talk about them in the next episode on the next episode. Oh, in the next episode? Oh, ok. My mind's scattered. I don't know what it's me that's supposed to you. 

It's, it's you, it's the one you're leading. So, ok. Well, ok, I was at first I was just thinking, oh, yeah, the next chapter I was like, but that's not the next episode. But, yeah. Yeah. Now I know that maybe we'll talk about that more. I don't know. We'll see where the conversation goes. Oh, gosh. The only, the only other thing I had, uh, was just on the last page is the last line is you will find it profitable to ask your conscience and let it tell you. Um So what, and uh you know what, I'm just gonna read that. Why does this description fits so few of us to be Christians in these days? 

Oh, man, there's probably more I gotta read beforehand. Yeah. So what he's referring to all this stuff up above, but basically it boils down to this. Uh He says Christians know that in addition to the word of God spoken directly to them in the scriptures, God's word has also gone forth to create and control and order things around them. Uh That's essentially the, the, the gist of it. Uh There's more to it there, there's a lot more, he's a lot more worthy on things. But he goes, why does this description, what's this description, this description of Christians knowing the addition to the word? Um That's gone forth to create and control and order things. What is that fit so few of us who profess to be Christians these days? And he goes, you'll find it profitable, ask your conscience and let it tell you. 

That's an interesting phrase too for me. Yeah, because to be honest, people whose conscience is seared sea already already guess what it's gonna tell. It's gonna be like, oh, you're fine. Yeah, I'm fine. What are you talking about? I, I'm good. He's making some assumptions here and he's making an assumption that the Conscience isn't seared. And to be fair back in the day when he wrote this, Consciences, we're not anywhere, nearly as, as they are today. We have access. We've only strayed farther and farther and farther from this world has strayed a lot farther than it has. 

Back in the time when this book was written, access to illicit things, be a pornography or things like whatever off the charts more. Mhm. Ok. It's ridiculous. And, yeah, I, this book is good but it's starting to show it's day to day certain things that doesn't mean though, that there aren't good things to pull from it. Still, there are still great things to pull from it. 

Just some of it you're like, yeah, I, I see what you're saying, but you've got to be careful now because this isn't the seventies and sixties anymore. This is now very different, you know, way different. I look at it this way. How long ago were the sixties, 60 years ago? Yeah. That's gross. Yeah. Wow. Wow. That, that, that's a lot that, that can happen in that time. 

Well, especially for how quickly we've, like, advanced. Yeah. Um, yeah, to go on that at this worship night that I was at, I was chatting with the guy and he was, he was telling me how, like, you know, you look at how things are today. 

It's like he, he was, I don't know if he was surprised but it's like he had heard something that you'd probably, most, you wouldn't have heard in the past where it's like, people don't even, or have never been to church once in their life sort of thing. Like, if you went back in the day, like, well, back in the day, I mean, it was common for people at least just to go to church and whatnot to some degree. But it's like now nowadays with how kids are growing up, it's like they've never stepped inside of a church once in their life sort of thing. So, it's like we've really come a far ways away from anything biblical or any of that stuff. Yeah. But in what we're seeing as generations growing up more and more and more are going unchurched. Mhm. Getting a lot more wild. And that's either from, you know, they themselves not going once they, you know, are old enough not to go with their family or their parents are very lackadaisical on going and they don't go and they don't take their kids and so then their kids are never there either. 

So, for me, at the end of this I, we, so after the whole, it'd be profitable to ask your conscience and let it tell you it, it made me think of the, the, the verse and Psalms. Oh, which, then I ended up pulling up, obviously, um, the Psalms 1 39 23 24 word. Search me. Oh, God. And know my heart, try me and know my thoughts and see if there would be any grievous way in me and lead me in the way everlasting. 

That's kind of, uh, I don't know. For me it, it comes off as kind of a, hm, a scary one because I don't want to know about any grievous way in me. I like to just think everything is, you know, hey, ok, we're doing fine. There's nothing wrong going on in, in here. But when you ask for that stuff to be pointed out, and that's the other thing is we're obviously we're hopefully your conscience isn't seared because he'll point stuff out out to you. But if you just willingly just, uh, no. Yeah. Well, then that's how you just make it worse. 

Yeah, that's definitely true. Hm. All right. Anything else in that chapter or should we go to chapter 12? Finally, we can finally go to 12. So that was chapter 11 of Knowing God by J I Packer. And now we're gonna go ahead and play the first few seconds with a little bit of context edited out. So you don't figure out what's going on for next week's episode. 

I realize it's still May, but June is right around the corner here of when we come out, these are gonna, these episodes are gonna be the last two weeks of May and I'll say a couple things before we get started here and Aaron's lead in the conversation one after you watch part one or part two or both. If you want to have a more one on one conversation with me and, you know, me personally feel free to reach out. Let's have that conversation. Don't feel like, oh, I can't have that conversation. We can't talk about that. That's why we're talking about this here to begin with. Ok. This is something I talk to Aaron about, uh prepared him a little bit back in January. 

Be like, hey, June's coming up, this happens every June, let's talk about this. This isn't for personal clout for personal. Anything else? It's more along the lines of, hey, this is reality. And uh I I asked Erin to lead the conversation and he graciously agreed to lead this conversation. 

He may feel a little nervous about it. He may not know how to start things off, but that's ok. That being said, if you are happening to listen to this with Children in the room, my recommendation maybe is listen to it first on your own and then decide if it's appropriate to bring Children in on this conversation. It's not appropriate for every age. Obviously, that's why there's a big battle controversy ruling in our schools right now about things like this. So use wisdom and discernment. This is really intended for adults in all honesty. But like I said, if, if you know me personally and if you know me personally, you probably have my phone number, reach out. Um, if you want to have a further conversation or you have questions or even if you have disagreements, that's fine. I think we can have a conversation about this. So let's just get on with it here. My name is Paul. I'm a.