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May 2, 2023

Knowing God Chapters 9 & 10: Wisdom Is Essential

Join hosts Paul and Aaron as they take a dive into chapters 9 and 10 of Knowing God. We go over the themes presented in the book including how Packer claims that wisdom is inherently moral in nature. The rest of the book continues to chat about how Wisdom is something that we should all pursue, and strive to know. Join us this week as we look at and study Packer's Knowing God.

Use Your Words podcast is passion project of two people from Southeastern Wisconsin. Please consider checking out the below links to learn/hear more. And join us every week for new episodes!

Visit our website: https://useyourwords.cc

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Join hosts Paul and Aaron as they take a dive into chapters 9 and 10 of Knowing God. We go over the themes presented in the book including how Packer claims that wisdom is inherently moral in nature. The rest of the book continues to chat about how Wisdom is something that we should all pursue, and strive to know. Join us this week as we look at and study Packer's Knowing God.

Use Your Words podcast is passion project of two people from Southeastern Wisconsin. Please consider checking out the below links to learn/hear more. And join us every week for new episodes!

Visit our website: https://useyourwords.cc

Listen to the podcast on all of your devices: https://useyourwordspod.captivate.fm/listen

Watch On Youtube: Link

Send us an email: https://www.useyourwords.cc/contact

Read the blog: https://www.useyourwords.cc/blog


Ooh. Fun stuff.


Lovey dovey. Cool stuff. Ooh, woo. I feel like I'm at the club. Oh my God. God. But chapters nine and 10 of Knowing God by j. J Packer. Wow. I Jair Packer Jr. Packer. It's not pecker. As we learned in the last episode. It is pecker chapters nine and 10. I finally have highlights again. Woo-hoo. And notes.


Wow. Life is going. What? Good. So nine and 10, like seven and eight are very less meaty. They're, these are like diet chapters that we have in the middle here. This is like a teenager that has decided they wanna go on into diet before they get back to steak. The one time I


like diets.


The one time you like diets.


Wow. Okay, I see. I see how it's, okay. So chapter nine is called God Only Wise. Now, what I find interesting, just so you know, um, Is that wisdom in most religious kind of circles. And even in like, uh, song, not, not songs. Proverbs No, E Ecclesiastes, huh? Yeah, Ecclesiastes and Proverbs too, but calls wisdom like by the feminine.


Mm-hmm. But the most religions do that too. I just found that interesting. Just bonus side note, uh, bonus, uh, notes in there. Uh, because I don't think hacker, if I remember right, really brings that up as a point, and that's fine. Doesn't need to. But there is a lot going on here in this dealing with wisdom.


And we start off right at the beginning with this wisdom is a moral as well as an intellectual quality. I was like, huh, that's interesting. Why do you say that Packer Impact goes, wisdom is a power to see, and the inclination to choose the best in high school together with the surest means of attaining it, wisdom is in fact the practical side of moral goodness.


It's like, huh, that's interesting. And then it continues, it is found in its fullness only in God. He alone is naturally and entirely and invariably wise. I was like, huh, okay. That's an interesting way to to to start this out. And I was like, you're, you're starting with a big premise here, packer. You're starting with a premise that yes, God is wise, God is all this, uh, God is, uh, everything with this, but, but I was just like, huh.


Wisdom is moral as well as intellectual. I never thought of wisdom as a moral quality before, to be honest. I've always thought of wisdom as that, you know, you know, the old, I guess the old, uh, analogy, you know, you, you, you know that two plus two is four. You know that tomato is a fruit, but you know, tomato.


But wisdom is knowing that tomato doesn't belong in a fruit salad, because, you know, tomato is a fruit, really, right? Mm-hmm. So, you know, knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit, but wisdom is knowing it doesn't belong in a fruit salad.


I've never heard that before. You never heard that one? No. Or, or the one, it's awesome. Oh, the one that heard a little more dark and disgusting. You know, the toe jam is jammed, but you know, that jam, that jam doesn't belong anywhere. Oh, ah, yeah. I know. Yeah. I think that one


does sound more familiar though, but


ooh, yeah.


That's why I use a tomato one more frequently because I like the tomato one. Yeah. Yeah. Because, and that it actually still surprises a lot of people and they're like, wait, tomatoes a fruit? Yes, it's a fruit, tomatoes a fruit, but it does not belong in fruit salad. Why is it a fruit again, because of where the seeds are located and how, and how that's all done.


We can get into that a whole thing about fruits versus vegetables, but you know what? I am not educated enough and knowledgeable enough, and I know that I'm wise enough not to engage in the conversation until I know more. Oh,


nice. Well done. How, what wisdom


you have, but I, I just found that funny though.


It, it, it is, talk about it as a moral quality. I never. Yeah, contemplated that fact that it's part of the moral quality. And the thing is, he says that, and just like I pushed back on you and Josh in our group chat, I was like, okay, you say this, you better bring the proof. You better bring the receipts, as they say nowadays on why is it a moral quality?


Hmm, hm hmm. All right. So we'll see in this chapter if he brings those receipts or not. I hope so. Okay. So, you know, don't get me wrong, will I dis, I would not even disagree with the fact that, you know, when he says that something, he says something like, um, God is never other than wise in anything they does.


Okay, yeah, I agree a hundred percent with that. But that doesn't necessarily mean it's goodness. But this is me being pedantic and. Over analyzing everything. But that's how I get to be sometimes now. So that, that was like within the first two paragraphs of this chapter. Okay. Yes. And I'm already challenging packer and I love to challenge Packer.


Apparently. Apparently that has become my new side hustle. This challenging packer on things. Oh yes. Beautiful. Now, did you have anything in those first two paragraphs? No. Okay.


I only had something on 91.


All right. Now you'll have to, um, I guess, excuse me a little bit because our pages are not gonna match up exactly anymore.


No, I'm on Kindle, but here's what I wrote. Here's something, um, under the segment, wisdom, ours and Gods, so he talks some names here. Okay. Yeah. So it says because, so here's his, his thesis for this cha or this, um, paragraph. He says, human wisdom can be frustrated by circumstantial factors outside the wise person's control.


Mm-hmm. And I have no idea how to say this name. Et Opel. Yeah. Okay. Do you know who he is? Ah, he was a counselor of David that betrayed him. Hence why He's a turncoat counselor and he tried to get David's son Ab ab ab salam aam, yep. To betray and kill David


and he in Packer, wrotes Apo. This turn code counselor. Yeah. He said he gave him sound advice when he urged Epsilon to finish off David at once before he was able to recover and rest and everything. But Epsilon took a different line and ol sing the Wounded Pride. Seeing the revolt fail, went home in despair and committed suicide.


This was back in second Samuel 17, you know, and he, and he goes with this and he's saying, well, okay, so you know, humans because we can't see everything that's gonna happen. Obviously our wisdom is faulty and frail and, okay, I'll give you that, okay? Mm-hmm. And then he goes, but God's wisdom cannot be frustrated, uh, in the ways that ethical pole's, good advice was for it, because God's wisdom is allied, or joined with or in conjunction with, or used with, however you wanna put it with omnipotent.


And you know what omnipotent is, right?


What's omnipotent?


No. You don't know? No. Okay. That's fine. If you say no, that is fine. That, okay. So omnipotent is having unlimited power, omni being unlimited potents power, able to do anything.


I forgot, I'm, I have your book in my hands again. Why? I was think as I could feel like I would've underlined that you, this is your, but this is, I mean, still I underlined everything that I underlined, but I was like, shoot, why didn't I, I didn't


underline anything.


Nine. These ones? No. Yeah. Nine or 10. But I was just like, wait a minute. Yeah.


How did I, okay. So I was like, unlimited power. Yes. Yeah. So this sentence, at first blush on reading it can be confusing. Omniscience, governing, omnipotent. Infinite power, ruled by infinite wisdom is a bi basic biblical description of the divine character.




Um, I've always pronounced it omnipotent




I, I was like omnipotent. I was like, um, I was like omnipotent. Okay. Any who?


Omnipotent, omnipotent. Omni. I don't know which one I've always said omnipotent. Okay.


All right. That's how I'm gonna go with it Now. Omnipotent. I know how


it is because it's omniscience, Omni omniscience, Omnis




Um, it's the Omni.


Yeah. And I, okay. Goodness. Uh, inside into Paul's mind. Here. I played F Fantasy seven a lot growing up when I was a teenager. And one of Cloud strip's Ultimate Moves was called Omni slash No. Well,


it sounds Omni. It's Omni.


Omni. Yes. I guess it's not. So that's why, that's why, that's why I go more Omni Omnipotent.


Yeah, Omni. Exactly. Potence. That's Omni. That's my brain is stuck in that way of F fantasy seven and singing the omni slash Oh gosh. Which if you've never played F Fantasy seven, the original, not the remake. Oh, I've never Chefs Kiss. But again, it's one of those things, if you like J RPGs or not. Yeah, that's up to you.


If you don't like them, you will hate it. But if you love J PPGs so


good. Yes, chef. But I just, my brainer, just like, wait a minute. Hold up here.


Hold up. Wait. Let's try. We'll sort of turn his Anyways, so he's going on about that, right? Yes. Was there anything in this section, by the way, before I to end that you had highlighted wanted to cover


was pretty much, I had something at the end of this paragraph.


Whereas wisdom without power would be pathetic. A broken read power without wisdom would be merely frightening. But in God, boundless wisdom and endless power are unit oh united. And this makes him utterly worthy of our fullest trust.


Yeah, I had that area highlighted too. Uh, specifically I had the wisdom without power would be pathetic.


Power without wisdom would be merely frightening. Didn't have the arrest of it highlighted. And the reason I highlighted that is it shows how one balances out the other. Mm-hmm. Right. And I was like, Hmm, okay. But it does say, but than God, boundless wisdom and endless power are united. And I think what he's trying to do, he's trying to pull that back into his thesis for this chapter, which is that wisdom.


Is a, is an attribute of a, is a moral thing.


Mm-hmm. Yeah. So I was like, all right, okay. I get this, I get what you're going for. Not, I'm not a hundred percent on, uh, board with your, uh, assertions yet, but I'm there. I'm there for it. I'm hug. I'm here for it. I'm here to, I'm here, I'm here to give it a listen, and then I'm gonna give you a judgment afterwards.


I am in the club and ready to dance. What


you're getting closer to that youth pastor, terminology, ology?


No, I can never reproduce it fully because


I, uh, maybe not fully as you're getting closer now,


it's all facetiously bing. Done in love. In love. Mm-hmm. Okay.


So the next thing I, I, I, I, I. I wrote down here was a line where we cannot recognize God's wisdom unless we know the end for which he's working. And I wrote interesting thought here that the wisdom isn't apparent unless we know the end God is working for which for Calvinist could be impossible because, and here's why I go with that.


Because unless in the Calvinist worldview, unless you've been predestined to be elected, you can't know what the spirit is doing and you wouldn't be sensitive to what God would be doing. And you can't know God unless you're predestined to Preed. I was like, huh, that could be interesting. I was like, Hey, look.


Calvinism coming back to bite him again. Oh, Richard,


sorry. That's just me taking any little jab I can at Calvinism when it comes up because I can't, and I love to. Lucky we live in America. Just kidding. But he's from Britain. So true. Listen man, it's true. Oh, doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. Again, the Calvinism thing is a secondary issue. Oh yeah. It's not a primary issue.


It's not an issue. Which I would go away from you. Evil fk. Big heresy. Yeah. It, it's gonna be a long lines of, yeah, we're gonna disagree on this, but it's not gonna be the end of the world. We could still have lunch. You know? We could, we could still, we could still talk. We could still go to the club together.


Come, I just wanna say that, whatever. I can't just see. Was there anything in that area that you highlighted? Cause I highlight something that mm-hmm. I think is a stumbling block for a lot of people.


Okay. I have, I don't, I don't know why I just was Laz on the right, underlined. Just a short little spot.


Cause it's like, well, it's the whole. Thing I should have underlined, but it's misunderstanding what the Bible means when it says that God is love. And it says C one John four, chapter four, verses eight through 10. Uh, they think that God intends a trouble free life for all, um, irrespective of their moral and spiritual state.


And hence they conclude that anything painful and upsetting, illness, accident, injury, loss of job, uh, suffering of a loved one indicates either that God's wisdom or power or both have broken down or that God, after all does not


exist. Yep. So, and, and I, I highlighted, and you know, I did my highlight shortening thing.


Yes. So my highlight, shortening, essentially shortened down to this God is love. You know, or it should be misunderstanding what the Bible means. One says the God's love. Mm-hmm. They think that God intended a trouble free life for all. And I think painful and upsetting indicates that you're God's wisdom or power both have broken down or that God, after all does not exist.


God's wisdom never pledged to keep a fall world happy or to make ungodliness comfortable. Mm. There's a lot of extra words in there. Yes. And that's what it really shortens down to in, in there. Yes. And I was like, yeah, that is true. Because, and, and that's why I said, that's why I think last, the, the biggest stumbling block for a lot of people is, is because they go, oh, I'm a Christian now.


Everything's gonna be happening. I'm gonna be blessed. I'm gonna had this and everything's gonna be good. And, and then all of a sudden, wait, why did my mom die of cancer still? Why did I lose my job? Where's the struggle coming from? Why did this happen? What did A lot of people, unfortunately, they expect that when they go, well, I'm gonna follow you, God.


It's like the magic genius. Go, yeah. Everything will be good now.


It's basically Yeah. The whole prosperity stuff. Yep. Which


I mean, You mean what?


Prosperity gospel's wrong? Uh, I guess well, it's


like where,


hi. Um, as far as far as like prosperity stuff goes, as a Christian, you already are blessed and you will be blessed continuously. Obviously, troubles happen, but that's, that's the whole, like the sin aspect of being on earth obviously is a word. I mean, a heartache happens. Suffering happens cuz they're sitting here and we always get caught up in the thing where it's like, oh yeah, we won't feel pain anymore.


Whatever. All this lovey dovey. Cool. Woo. Fun stuff.


Lovey dovey. Cool stuff. Woo. Woo. I feel like I'm at the club. Oh my God. God. But


in the long term, I mean it's, we have the eternity of heaven to look forward to. So yes. I mean, we are blessed beyond measures Uhhuh. So it's like, yes, everything will be great at some point, but we're gonna have a tough time while we're still here.


And I mean, not everybody obviously is every people are gonna have different experiences people might not have as terrible of, I guess we're tough in a sense, lives as other people do. Mm-hmm. But it is


what it. It is what it is. It is what it is. It's one of my favorite things, and it's my mom's least favorite thing.


She says, anytime I say it to her, she's like, I hate that thing. I'm like, well, it is what it is. I'm sorry.




that is, that is interesting though. Cause like I've, there's been other, I wanna say like speakers where I've heard them say like, it is what it is. It's just, it's not a good way to go about things. I'm just like, why?




yeah, you can't die. What you gonna do


to change it? I don't know. Well, I mean, and it is what it is, the phrase Yes, it is what it is.


The reason I like it, yes. Is. And this is more insight into the background workings of my brain here. Okay. Hmm. When I was going through my outpatient therapy, one of the things that, you know, I, my therapist and that helped me identify is one of the things I do is I will put things off and off and off until ultimately I cannot put it off anymore.


I'm forced, like to address it Yeah. In some way. And, and the root one, the root causes of that for me, and, and it took me some time with my inpatient, my outpatient, my therapist, and figured this out, is I was afraid of those, maybe those conversations that had, or those interactions or whatever. And they're, and they're like, look, here's the thing.


You can either dwell in the past and, and, and maybe some bad interactions you had, you can dwell in the future, the potential bad interactions that it has. Could be, could be, or you could deal in the current state of things and just realize it is what it is. It'll. You'll get over it. Eventually you'll get through it and life will move forward.


It is what it is. Sometimes you have no control over those things to change 'em. Sometimes you don't. Sometimes you do things. Learn your immediate control that you can change. You know where you're involved, fine, whatever. You can change 'em. But things are outside your control. It is what it is. What do you do exactly?


Are you gonna sit there and fret and worry and be in this constant state of fear and panic and depression because you can't change something else that's outside of your control? Or do you live knowing that you can control what you can control within your sphere of influence and move on the best you can with the other stuff going on?


It is what it is. It's what it's. Yeah. So that, that's why it's become one of my favorite phrases because it helps me in a way, it's not a mantra per se, but it helps me get through some of those things of like mm-hmm. Where I'm tempted to be like, well, I don't want to address this. Well, you know what, I, I just need to push through and do it right.


And it helps me stay mentally healthier in essence. You know, it's one of those things I just have to sometimes move through, but that's why I like that statement, because it is, it is what it is. Sometimes, sometimes we have no choice in, in, say, in some of these things. And in the same thing with this, where it says, you know, God's wisdom never pledged to keep a foreign world happy, or to make ungodly dis comfortable and then points out not even to Christians, has he promised a trouble free life, rather the reverse.


Yeah. Yeah. It is what it is. Yep.


And we have to, and I have to be able to be comfortable living with that. And so that's why I, going through it, I was like, all right, I got it. I, I get it. I, I, okay. Still not, um, convinced of the premise that wisdom is more goodly moral, but Hmm. I'm still convinced that it is doing things right.


Is there anything else in this section that you had highlighted? Because the next thing I have highlighted isn't until the next area where it says God dealing with his people.


Oh, okay. Uh, I just had loving honor him, which is, uh, going on from that last start of a paragraph where it's, what is he after then, what is his goal?


What does he aim at? When he made us, his purpose was that we should love and honor him.


Yep. Thank you.


And then, uh, before we get to the God dealing with his people, I also have, so the, I guess would be the first, um, full paragraph on the page 92. Uh, this will be God's Glory and Our Glory, two in every sense, which that weighty word can bear.


Then I have Underlied mother will only be fully realized in the next world in the context of a transformation of the whole created order. Mm-hmm. Which,


yeah, we won't fully see it until


later. Yep. Which


can't imagine




hurts the brain a little bit.


You've, oh man. Just thinking of heaven and all that stuff. It just, it hurts my brain. The whole thought of eternity and it's just like,


ugh. You know what else hurts my brain Dealing with me?


Yes. Yeah. I was about to say all the thumping in a club, but from the bass. That's the best part. Whatcha you talking about? I just wanna see what you'd say


all about Deb Bass. No, I'm trample. Okay. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Go on.


Wow. Okay.


The, the, the, the, the A D D H, whatever it is, and my head is


strong. I didn't know we were doing a Bible belt today, but apparently are.


Yes, yes. No. All right, so we got that going on. Um, So what I, I highlighted under here, under the God dealing with his people. Mm-hmm. I, I wrote, I highlighted this only because it was an interesting statement. Abraham was not by nature, a man of strong principle. Oh yeah, that's right. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Is that something you underlined too?


No, I was, I was, when I was reading this, I was just like, cuz I mean, I always think of the story of the Abraham and Isaac. I was like, oh, how He's just so trusting and whatnot. I was like, he would go and well like, but that was his


confidence. But that was near


the end of his life. Yes. Yeah. I was like,




Mm-hmm. And, and, and I know when I first read that too, I was like, wait. But then I had to think, I was like, wait, that is near the end of his life. We're not talking near the beginning where he would lie to people and say, oh no, his wife was a sister. Yeah. Oh, he slept with the, the, the, the maid to have a child with her.


Mm-hmm. Or the slave, not the maid. Uh, to have a child with her because he didn't think that, you know, that he would have a dog, a, a kid with, with his wife, essentially. Well,


well, her maid, well, I guess in here says her, uh, her maid, uh, Hagar. Yeah.


Uh, yeah. It depends on your translation made segment sort deal.


Yeah. Same. Same, but different. Okay. But what, what he gets at is he goes, Abraham needed most to learn the practice of living in God's presence. Sing li all life in relation to him and looking to him and him alone as commander, defender, and rewarder. And then he kind of goes through some of the stuff that Abraham went through along the this line to learn, learn this.


And you know, when Abraham was promised all this land, his descendants would be numerous as of the greens of sand and all that. And it comes to this, Abraham never possessed any more of Keenan than a grave.


Where is that? I can't tell you the exact page number, but it's, it's like a couple of paragraphs down there. Oh.


And then from here it talks about, you know how essentially Abraham did this transformation, right? Yeah. You know, we see how he, um, it says he declines to claim his due precedence over his nephew. We see new Coury sets off a mere 300 men to rescue lot from the combined forces of Port Kings see new dignity as, as he deprecates, keeping the re uh, recaptured booty.


Wow. I bring, literally just wanted to say recap. I was like,


so keeps going through. Uh, there was one word in here. I was like, I wonder if Aaron knows what it is. It says, we have, we see him becoming a man of prayer and important in poor intercessor, burdened with a sense of responsibility for God, for others. Do you know what that word means?


No, but I was gonna laugh cuz I was going to see if, um, it was something I had on the line and I had a question mark.


Um, it's


single. I,


um, it's in the second full paragraph of 93.


What to


start with, uh, what Abraham needed most was, oh, was to learn to practice of was the practice of living in God's presence. Okay. And then a little bit down there. So I am God the almighty walk before me and be blameless, single eye and sincere. It's like what?


This is hacker adding in emphasis on something here. Okay. He's adding his own notes, essentially. Yeah. This isn't a translation thing. Uh, so what he's saying, uh, single wide insincere, he's saying,


okay. This is gonna sound like a horrible analogy. Okay. Um, when I'm treating my dog, Xena, I train her to keep her eyes only on me when I do things. I will lit. I will literally go watch me and look, this is the movement I do. I put my fingers up to my hands, up to my eyes. I go watch me. I want her to only have eyes for me while whatever else is going on.


My mother could be throwing a steak in front of her face, but I want her to watch me. I want her to be focused on me. Mm-hmm. Okay. As we go through it. And I want that focus cuz you know, a dog, they're fair food and mobile. I'm working on her with this a lot. And it is hard cuz you throw like a piece of meat in front of a dog, they're gonna want that meat and they're gonna like side eye it.


They're gonna look at it and they're gonna like, look at it drool, look at it drool. But you know, but they keep returning to me, right? Mm-hmm. But they keep side eyeing it. Yeah. So I need to get her. To the point, Zena, to the point where Ryan go watch me. She looks at me, ignores a me doesn't even, Dr doesn't side eye it.


Yeah. In a way, that's what I think he's trying to get here. Okay. We need to be looking so much at God and sincere about it, that we're not batting our eyes to the other things of the world that are going around us. Mm-hmm. We're not worried about our work. You know? Now this isn't to say that these things are not important to our lives and that we should work on them, but it, it's not a thing that we don't trust God with.


We trust God with those things. Mm-hmm. And by trusting God, we put our eyes on him. Mm-hmm. We focus on him and we go, it is what it is. Guide us on this way.


Right. We don't get derailed. Exactly. Okay. But so anyways, also, no, I don't know


what that word is though. It means


persistent. Okay. I'm trying to, I thought I just saw it, but I.


Can't seem to see it now.


So in other words, it should read an, uh, persistent intercessor burden with a sense of responsibility before God for others. I saw that. I was like, I bet you Aaron is not gonna know what that word means. So let me take a look and, uh, oh yeah, Nate. Yeah. I was like, let me look that up.


And unfortunate. Yeah. So it, it really means persistent, especially to the point of an annoyance or intrusion.


Mm. Yeah. We need that. Okay. I need that. But it's saying that Abraham be, you know, he started off with this as this very impulsive guy. Mm-hmm. Not trusting God. And he eventually became this by living within God's wisdom and learning from God through the time he became a new man. Yep. And you know, it keeps going on how.


Jacob should marry his cousins, Leia and Rachel and become the father of the 12 patriarchs. You know, going through that whole thing in that whole craziness. So


this is all in gen? Well, Genesis. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I always for it's forget how much


happens Genesis. Oh, there's a lot. There's another, there's another thing in here.


It's talk. When Jacob had Filched Esau's birthright and blessing, what does filched mean? Was it a kind he took? Yeah. Stolen? Yeah. And then it says ESL turned against him naturally and Jacob had to leave home in a hurry. Yeah. That, that whole story is Jacob and esol and then how he ends up marrying his cousins is weird.


But, you know,


we're in the south, apparently good old Alabama. He, Elton. Yeah. Yep, yep, yep, yep. Sorry, I


didn't mean to name names. Huh?


Uh, what You can name names. My, my campaign's over, they don't have any Alabama relationships anymore. That was creepy.


Goodness. So he keeps, you know, so Pa uh, I almost called him Patrick Packer keeps talking about these people in the genesis, you know? Mm-hmm. Theen Abraham and how they are learning through various things to rely on God and his wisdom and all that. Now, here was interesting and every just reminded of me, right?


Uh, the story of Jacob wrestling God, uh, and, and I was just like, yeah. And here's what I highlighted. I highlighted Jacob had hold of God. He wanted a blessing us in assurance of divine favor, right? And then it says, and protection in this crisis, but he could not get what he sought. Instead, he grew evermore conscience of his own state, utterly helpless, and without God utterly hopeless.


He felt the full bitterness of his unscrupulous, cynical ways now becoming home to now coming home to roost. He had here throw been self-reliant, believing himself to be more than a match for anything that might come. But now he felt his complete inability to handle things and it's, it keeps going on about this, uh, in our words, this is why he sought that blessing, right?


This is why he, he, he goes, I'm not gonna let you go essentially until you bless me. He goes, he literally goes, I will not let you go unless you bless me. Mm-hmm. And then goes, and now at last God spoke, the word of blessing for Jacob was now weak and despairing and humble, and dependent enough to be blessed and then says Jacob never lapsed back into his old ways.


Limping. Jacob had learned his lesson and I was like, Hmm. Now. Do I think God has to make us all limp for us to learn lessons? I don't know. Some of us maybe, but


yeah, that's, yeah. For everybody, no,




Sum. Yeah. But I think he, he sums it up pretty well here. God uses sustained hardship to teach these lessons very frequently. That's a true statement. Mm-hmm. They don't have to be crippling, but they can be hard for us. They can be difficult in the time that we're going through, and I know we've both had our own things at times.


Mm-hmm. You don't have to look all side i e on that side. I e. Yeah.


So was there anything else in there that you had highlighted you want to cover, you thought was cool and should be brought out? Oh boy.


Um, there was, oh, ooh, talking about Jacob.


Gosh. Oh, we're, so Jacob must be made to feel his own utter weakness and foolishness must be brought to such complete self distrust that he would no longer try to get on by exploiting others. Jacob's self real reliance must go once and for all, uh, for God. Always wait. Oh, and then, so with patient wisdom, God always waits for the right time, uh, and then going to, Oh, boy, boy, boy, boy, boy.


Oh, there were hours of desperate agonized conflict, spiritual, and as it seemed to Jacob Physical also, um, being utterly hopeless without God. And then so as, when you were talking about, um, uh, he had, how do hedo, I don't know, Ben self-reliant, believing himself to be more than a match for anything that might come, but now felt completely all his complete inability to handle things.


And he knew with blinding blazing certainty that never again dare he trust himself to look after himself and to carve out his destiny. Never again, dare He tried to live by his wits. It just kept, uh, well, it brought to my mind of just how some, I mean, Basically just kind of what you're going on about where it's like not all of us have to go through like, I guess to a point like crippling things to kind of get us on track with God sort of thing.


So we we're, we don't pretty much what we just submit and stop being stubborn and want our own thingies, but it's like hitting those lowest lows and being at those lowest points where it takes us to finally be like, oh, have that wake up moment. Like, hello. Yep. Freaking idiot.


Come on. And we've all had those.


Let's go. We've all had those moments.


Oh yes. So I, yeah, that's, that's all I had for that section. I didn't have anything until, well, I guess really underlined until woo, our perplexing trials a little


ways in time. Oh yeah. Our perplexing trials. Uh, so I had a. Only a couple things highlighted here. Mm-hmm.


But I think the main thing, and I, and this might even be the same thing that you have highlighted. I don't know. Let's see. We'll see how close we are to one another on this. What, what, what? What's that facial expression for? Huh? Oh wait, this


saying, this is the end already. I was like, oh, wait, no, there's still chapter 10.


I was like, oh my goodness. Yeah. I forgot just how short


that was. Yeah. Uh, okay. So what I had highlighted was this, therefore be too taken aback when unexpected and upsetting, and discouraging things happen to us. Now, what do they mean? Simply that God in his wisdom means to make something of us, which we have not attained yet, and he is dealing with us accordingly.


So why do, why did I underline that? Mm-hmm. Because what, what he's talking about is he's saying, Hey, you know these things, Abraham, Jacob, all this stuff, you know, that we're to learn from it. Why is it written down? It's because the same wisdom. That brought them through those paths that taught them through life is the same wisdom in the Bible.


That's the same wisdom from God, same wisdom from the Holy Spirit that teaches us now through our paths, whatever they may be. Yes, they're gonna be different than what those individuals went through, but that doesn't mean they're different because it's from the same God that we learned in previous chapters.


Guess what is immutable?




Bringing that word back into it, huh? Nice.


Where was that? I'm, I'm I trying to find that, what? That section that you read,


uh, the therefore B2 taken aback. Yeah, that's right on, right at the start of our perplexing trials, isn't it really? Yes, it is. The line starts. We should not,


ah, there we go. Therefore, to me. Okay. B2 taken. Yep. Oh, okay. Yeah, I had, uh, I had, Paul saw part of the re Well, yeah, part of the reason for his own afflictions and the fact that God, and then it has in quotes, second Corinthians one, four.


Right. No Koran. Yeah. Shoot cor.


Wow. That's second


Corinthians one, four Corinthians. Yeah. Chronicles starts with is c h. Yeah, that's right. Hold. Hello Corinthians? Yes. Yeah. Second Corinthians one, four. Um, so anyway, Paul saw part of the reason for his afflictions in the fact that God comforts us in all our troubles so that we can comfort those in any trouble with the comfort we ourselves had received from God going, I mean, which we'd already kind of already talked about, where it's like each of us has our own struggles and sort of thing where we can then have, well be there for anybody else that can also share in the same struggles that we have been through sort of thing.


I was like,


right, how cool, how cool?


How neat is that? How Needto


is very needto. I'm sure that's a club song.


It's not what I'm gonna listen to now. There's none. I'll find it. I'll


anything else highlighted in this section? No, that, that was it. That's all I had, surprisingly. Okay. I highlight these are thanks here.


All right. Meanwhile, we ought not to hesitate to trust his God's wisdom, even when he leaves us in the dark. Mm. And then I also highlight this. If we do these two things, we shall never find ourselves holy in the dark as to God's purpose in our troubles. Mm. Now, what are these two things he's talking about?


They're in the paragraph above. He says, first by taking them as from God and asking ourselves what reactions to them and in them the Gospel of God requires of us. Second, by seeking God's face specifically about them,


it's a paragraph right above. Mm-hmm. Okay. And the last thing I did was this, I highlighted, was this. It's right at the end of this chapter, Paul saw that his trouble was sent, I think it should say, should say um, to him cuz it says Paul saw that his trouble was sent him to enable him to glorify Christ.


That's a mouthful. That's weird. Without it's all criticized. He accepted as a wisely appointed and even rejoice in it. Mm. Okay. And then what we learn in chapter 10, the things we learn here will change our lives forever. They're the impotence by which we change things.


And this is chapter 10, God's Wisdom and Ours in Ours.


When the old reformed theologians dealt with the attributes of God, they used to classify them in two groups, incommunicable and communicable. What sir is incommunicable and what is communicable?




when I was taking a guess at it, Uhhuh, I'm guessing communicable is like communicating or being able to get something across to a point. Okay. But Incommunicable Incommunicable is, is you're not able to.


Things you can't quite like describe or,


yeah, so they say the things are incommunicable are things that are characteristics of God alone.


Oh, you silly


person. Yeah. In other words, so one of the things that they said that are incommunicable, right? Yes. Yes. That, yeah. Literally God's independence. Literally self existence and self-sufficiency.


His immutability, oh look that word again. Immutability. Yes. His infinity and his, and this one was weird when I read it at first. His simplicity. Yeah.


The fact that there are in him no elements that can conflict so that unlike us, he cannot be torn in different directions. By divergent thoughts and desires.


Yeah. That, do you know what divergent means? Divergent thoughts. Don't think about, don't, don't worry about it. What the word, thoughts and all that. But what's divergent mean?




like I wanna say, like opposing or just,


how do I wanna describe that? Divergent thoughts. Getting, oh, oh, it's changing. I don't know. Like changing, uh, like, well, I guess, well, that'd be kinda like changing thoughts. Um, I don't know. I can't think of how to word


that. Divergent means tending to be different or develop in different directions, develop in different directions, divergent interpretations, divergent, uh, from one another, different from one another.


Think of it that way. Different. That's


better. Yes.


Well, well, okay. Yeah.


Okay. Got that? Yeah. All right. So the second group, the communicable. What's Incommunicable? Wait, what can't be to,


what's the matter?


He cannot be torn in different directions by divergent thoughts and


design. So just in other words, he can't have a desire that is separate from his thought. His thoughts and desires are uniform in what they want. For example, let's make this a very human example. Okay. And, and even the scriptures talk about this.


We know what we are to do. That is right and good, right? Correct. We know what is holy, we know what God wants of us, but our flesh desires different things at times, and we have to struggle against that fight, whether that be lust, whether that be alcohol, whatever. In other words, what's saying is God can't have any of those.


He can't have that divergent thought and desire, where we can, where we want to follow God, we want to be holy, we want to try to live the right life, but mm-hmm. Our urges may for something else because they're, you know, of the flesh. God doesn't have that issue. That's what it's saying. Okay. In, in basic terms, in basic terminology.


I like basic


terminology. Yeah. Divergent. But, but I mean, it's good to know more advanced concepts and terminology like divergent.


So interesting. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So communicable, that's the second group, right? Correct. Uh, things in the communicable list are God's spirituality, freedom, omnipotence, along with all his moral attributes, goodness, truth, holiness, righteousness, and so on. And then it says, and this is my, was my question here.


What was the principle of classification here? I'm glad he said that. Right? It's, and it's this, that when God made man, he communicated to him qualities corresponding to all these in order. He told us things about these things. Mm-hmm. Uh, it says, this is what the Bible means when tells us a God made man in his own image.


And I was like, that is a different interpretation that I've ever heard of God making us in his own image.




did bring me back, oh.


To a, uh, a message, uh, pastor David given I think. Okay. And youth group.


I'm thinking, unless I'm in the wrong, in the wrong spot, um,


this is


what, yeah. This is what it means when he made it in his own image. Mm-hmm. It's not just, uh, because Pastor Dave was going on about, it's not like, just like the, our physical things. It's the spiritual stuff.


The Right, yeah.


And, and that was the, yeah.


That was like, that was the first time where I, I had. Ever heard, heard, uh, you know, that I guess way




ah, gosh. That description of it, I, ooh, I can't think of the words to use, but that was the first time I've ever heard something like that. And then I rud it in this, I was like, oh,


wow. Right now he does go on to say, he says, God made a man of free spiritual being a responsible moral agent with powers of choice and action, able to commune with him, responding by nature, God truth, full, holy, upright in a word, godly.


And I was like, mm-hmm. Okay. But yeah, it, it is just interesting the phraseology that he uses at first, gimme room for pause on how he, on how he worded that, you know? Mm-hmm. But we'll see how that goes as we move through the rest of the chapter. Now, thankfully he does write this next sentence, the moral qualities which belong to the divine image were lost at the fall.


It's like, mm-hmm. Okay. You caught me back on board. You had me worried there for a little bit, packer that you were little going off board, but you brought me back. Cool. Bring me back. Cool. Cool. Cool, cool, cool, cool. Cool, cool, cool. If you don't know where that's from, that's okay. Dunno if I do community. Oh, okay.


How bad he goes. Okay. Cool. Cool, cool, cool. Mm-hmm. Yep. See I also had, uh, what else did you have underlined here? It was


the goddess at working in Christian believers to repair his ruined image by communicating these qualities


to them afresh. Mm-hmm. And I have this, um, well, actually no I didn't, I don't have anything under line till the 0.1 here.


So the 0.1, we must learn to, oh, okay, for reverence, God. So do you have anything between there and there? I just


prove verbs for seven and 13. Wisdom is supreme. Therefore, get, uh, therefore get wisdom though. It cost all you have. Get understanding, ending. Hold on to instruction. Do not let it go. Guard it well for it is for it is your life.


Whoa. Mm-hmm. I guess the part that I suppose grabbed my attention was though it cost all you have. It's like, oh, all you have, it's like,


well, boy, oh, the book of Proverbs. Interesting. It's a good book if you haven't read all the way through it. It is a very good book. Oh, I've started. I, Seth, you haven't read all the way through it.


I, yeah, probably.


Okay. Maybe I have. But do you remember much?


No. So I like where he now goes. He goes, where can we find wisdom? The view of the Lord? What steps must the person take to lay hold of this gift goes. There are two prerequisites according to scripture. One, we must learn to rev Reverend Scott. He does this, and this is why I highlight.


He goes, not till we have become humble and teachable, standing in awe of God's holiness and sovereignty, acknowledging our own littleness, dis distrusting our own thoughts and willing to have our minds turned upside down. Can divine wisdom become ours? Okay. And then the second thing he says, we must learn to receive God's word.


Wisdom is divinely wrought in those and only those, and those only who apply themselves to God's revelation. I was. And I was like, yep. So what that really means is if you are not in the war on a regular cadence, guess what? You're not getting wisdom. Yep. And then his question here, and I was like, haha, that's gotta be convicted to law people.


How long is it since you read Right through the Bible. And because in there he talks about, um, arch Deacon, TC Hammond. Mm-hmm. Used to read right through the Bible once a quarter. So that's four times a year. Mm-hmm. Huh? Huh. And then, and this, this tells you how old it is cuz it goes, do you spend as much time with the bible each day as you do even with the newspaper?


Yeah. Like


wait, hey,


some people still get the newspaper and I was like, wait, newspaper, it's still thing that's still around. We


waste paper on that. Oh


wow. Okay. Newspaper. Yes. Yes we do. You know, replace that with anything else. Video games, skip from tarof, music hanging out, anything like that. Then you can put it right in there.


Yeah. Did I, uh, just shoot, shoot, shoot. Over the bow there. Over the bow.


No, I just liked how you specified a escape from tar off. I was like, but, but, but,


but that's gonna be our thing. Maybe I'm leaving up. Leaving a hint for something future. Oh,


look at juice. Your secrets and your Easter egg stuff. Yeah. Cool.


I like it. It's not knee Easter. If you pointed out, you heard nothing, you forgot all of this.


Was there anything in here that you highlighted, because literally what you just said there. Okay. Do you have anything under what Wisdom is not? It's a next little segment.


Why do I don't, I don't. Okay. I didn't either, honestly. Okay. Um, there wasn't really anything in there that stuck out. Right. Wait, I, I might take that back. I might be taking that back. I'm taking that back. Sorry. All right. No, that's right. Being in a Kindle sometimes is a little confusing. That's okay. So,


okay, here's where we're gonna get, I'm gonna get in trouble. Uh, so this, I'm going to do a statement that I agree with and then a statement of Packer. If we rely, we would have a discussion. Okay. And you would be wrong. I don't care what you say, pecker, you would be wrong. All right. So,


uh, so what he's talking about in here, he's talking about how, and you have to read the book to get his analogy and get everything that's working there, but he's talking about how, you know, people looking on like the trains or subways, they'll be like, oh, I think I know why this train's later. This train's doing this, or this train's doing that.


Right? He goes, but you don't know really anything until you go into the signal box and see why they're routing the trains as it everything. And then he says this sentence, people feel that if they were really walking close to God, then they would so to speak, find themselves in the signal box. They would discern the real purpose of everything that happened to them, and it would be clear to them every moment of how God was making all things to work together for good.


Right. And he's going on that. All right. This is where I th this and, and I agree with that. You know, it's like people often go, well, if I pray enough, if I'm spiritual enough, I wanna know everything that God is doing, why he's doing it, blah, blah, blah. This is the part where me and him would have a conversation and, hmm, not, not be happy.


It's the next paragraph. Christians suffering from depression, physical, mental, or spiritual. Note that these are three different things. And so he is saying physical, mental, or spiritual depression may drive themselves almost crazy with this kind of futile inquiry. What sort of futile inquiry? The futile inquiry that people feel.


If they were really walking close to God, then they would, so to speak fun of themselves in the signal box. I was like, okay, we would have some conversation about this cuz uh, Yeah, there's some definite, uh, presuppositions about this going into it fully. Yeah,


I don't fully agree here, here, here's my statement on this. Disagree. Agree with me. Well, however you wanna do this. Right? And I'm going from my own personal experience on this. So take that with the biggest grain of salt in the world as you should. Any personal opinion and any reading into things. But I didn't think ever in my time, in going through depression that I had a, that the solution was drawing closer to God for wisdom to be inside the quote unquote signal box.


In fact, the thing that.


I was thinking and processing at the time was not so much that, it was more along the lines of, how do I put this in a way that makes sense to you, uh, normal people.


Oh, I'm going to definitely change the camera Focus to your face on that one. Dang it. You realize I get to see all the cameras simultaneously so I can focus and change the view anytime when I wanted to. Okay. Um, but it was almost,


I never, I I, I never tried to think that, that that was the answer, to walk closer to God because my, my thought was, this is gonna sound weird. God had already abandoned me because I was depressed, and, and the, that thought of walking closer was never like a solution for me. But again, mine was more physical, mental type thing for a spiritual person like that than may be the truth.


That may be the case as our, I, I, I just, I just have weird thoughts on this one. I, and this and that little phrase, I'm like, I'm not a hundred percent sold on this. Mm-hmm. Again, not that so much that it's, he's out of orthodoxy or away. It's all right. That's, uh, we will, we'll need to talk about it. Hmm. But that's just me.




Anything in there? Any thoughts on there? Any no objections? That's still under the Okay. Then realism needed. What does it mean for God to give us wisdom? It's like being taught to drive you. Do not ask yourself why the road should narrow or screw itself into a dog leg. Wiggle just where it does, nor why that van should be parked where it is, nor why the driver in front should hug the crown of the road.


So lovingly you simply try to see, do the right thing in the actual situation that presents itself. The effects of divine wisdom is to enable you and me to do just that in the actual situations of everyday life. To live wisely, you have to be clear sighted and realistically ruthlessly. So one book in scripture that is Expressi expressly designed to turn us into realist, and that is a book of Ecclesiastes.


Hmm. Now Ecclesiastes, have you ever read that book all the way through? Uh,


not that I can. Go back and s I went to the knowledge Okay. That I have.


Uh, do you know who the author is? Oh, heck no. Okay. So the author only defines himself as Collette, the preacher, a son of David Most believe that it was Solomon who was this, um, this preacher, so to speak.


So that, so that's what it is there, right. Um, it is interesting book. His interpretation of it is interesting. It's different interpretations that I've seen of other people ring Ecclesia. So I just like, oh, okay. That, that's a cool little. Thing that he likes to do, and I was like, all right, let, let, let's see what he does here.


Right? He says, the author speaks as a mature teacher giving a young disciple the fruits of his own long experience and reflection, and that most occurrences under the sun wear no outward sign of a rational moral God ordering them at all. I was like, Hmm, this is interesting. As he's going on through all this, you know, this is the, under the heading of Ecclesiastes, or he is doing this, and he goes, seeing all this, you realize that God's ordering of events is inscrutable much as you want to make it out.


You cannot do so. Do you know what inscrutable means? First off? Oh heck, ma'am. Where I am, nor you are right now. Impossible to understand. Inscrutable.


Yep. Well,


where are you? I'm in under the Ecclesiastes. Chunk what Ecclesiastes teaches us. Mm-hmm.


Because I saw, I, you were in the, uh, bottom of the third paragraph.


Now I'm looking for the word inable.




It's, yeah. It's probably, again, our page numbers aren't gonna line up, so I can give you a page. Sorry. Yeah, that's okay. Uh, the next thing he says is, the harder you try to understand the divine purpose in the ordinary pro providential course of events, the more obsessed and oppressed you grow for the apparent aimlessness of everything.


And the more you are attempted to conclude that life really is as pointless as it looks often, what is worthless survives. While that what, while what is valuable parishes, be realistic as a preacher. Face these SPACs see life edits. It is, it is what it is. You will have no true wisdom until you do.


I added in the, there it is. What it is. It is what it is. Yeah.




yeah. I had the, the harder you try to understand the divine purpose in the ordinary providential course of events. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I had that whole little, uh, section underline,


so boom. Yep. And then he continues on. Many of us need this ad adoni.


Now I'm trying to


find where, here,


um, admonition a wow. I can really.


Admonish it. I'm just kidding.


Um, for not only are we caught up with the York signal box conception or misconception of what wisdom is, and again, seeing the train signals of why the trains are being pulled off or slow down or sped up, blah, blah, blah.


We feel that for the honor of God, and also though we do not say this for the sake of our own reputation as spiritual Christians, it isn't necessary for us to claim that we are so to speak already in the signal box here and now enjoying inside information as to why and therefore of God's doings and then something very painful and quite inexplicable comes along.


And our cheerful illusion of being in God's secret counsels is shattered. Our pride is wounded. We feel that God has slighted us, and unless at this point we repent and humble ourselves very thoroughly for our former presumptions, our whole subsequent spiritual life may be blighted.


I was like, all right. And then this statement among the seven deadly sins of medieval lore was sloth, ceia, a state of hard bitten, joyless, athe of spirit. There's a lot of it around today in Christian circles.




Did you have anything else in this area about what Ecclesiastes teaches us? I know I kind of rattled off some pages there.


No, you wrote


everything that I had underline. Okay. Um, and I just, I, I don't know what it is about, um, The little like poem


stuff. The


hymns. I always like those things though. I don't know if I just want kind of like, like partly like the words or what, but mm-hmm. The Ye Saints Ado your Heavenly King and Onward as Ego, some joyful Anthem sing.


Take what he Gives and Praise Him still through Good and L whoever lives.


All right. I like


that little.




then who is uh, by Richard


Baxter? Yep. We got the last little section here. The Fruit of Wisdom. Did you have anything Un I don't think I did underlined highlighted here. No. Alright. I have this, as we have seen, it is not a sharing in all his knowledge, but a disposition to confess that he is wise.


And to cleave to him and live for him in the light of his word through thick and thin. That is where wisdom begins for us as humans and how we get wisdom with God. And that brings us to the end of Chapter 10 of Knowing God by j i Packer.