ABC: Knowing God Chapter 15

This week we're doing chapters 15 and 16 of knowing God. And all of a sudden, Aaron's going, what, what? Because we're talking about the wrath of God. And it's like, oh wait, yes, I remember wrath. Now I remember wrath and goodness and severity. Yeah. And in these two chapters, there are five words which I want to know if Aaron knows the meaning of as well. He's like he, he just immediately gives up. He's, he's like, I know I'm tapping out. We're, we're not even going to do that. I know nothing. How do you know nothing? I mean, I don't know nothing but I don't know the five words. Really? How do you know even which five words I'm gonna pick? Because there's so many words that you could pick uh if that's fair. But now, now, now, now, so before I was using my kindle, now I get to use my phone which means I can color code things now and so now I can, so all the words I want Aaron to define, I have highlighted in blue in my copy of the book. So that way I know when I get to it they're fancy. I can go, Aaron tell me the, in the word for this. Let me, uh, look at dictionary dot com real quick and your wifi goes down hotspot. All right. Well, you don't even need a has just, I'm sorry. Yeah, I see. That's how much, I don't know. It's ok, Mr Johnson. I forgive you this time. Sick. Cool. So again, we're reading J I Packer his book Knowing God, the IVP signature edition. We're doing chapters 15, 16 and starting with the wrath of God. And right away, we're gonna start with a word that I want to know from Aaron. If he knows what it is, it's like literally in the first sentence, indignation. That was literally when I looked up. That's so funny. Is it a word? You looked up? Ok. So what, what does it mean? I don't remember. Um I gosh, I my goodness, wait, doesn't it basically, doesn't it basically just say what it is anyway? Is in there? It does. Yeah. Yeah. I was like, wait a minute because as soon as like I came across, I looked up the definition and as I kept going, I was like, oh, it's right there. Yes, it is. Good job. Yeah. So what is the indignation? Well, ok, so I'm, what they're saying is a righteous anger, righteous anger, anger. You're doing a me, you're doing a Biden? Oh my gosh. That's what I'm gonna do for. I, I'm gonna be Biden. For Halloween except I'm not gonna go sniff Children. OK? Gotta play the part. No, I prefer staying out of jail but he's not. So you're because he's a Biden anyways back to back and anger indignation. Yeah. Righteous anger aroused by injustice and ba ba ba ba ba Baseness. Yeah. The dictionary also defines it as this and maybe this will maybe um be easier to understand because what does base mean in that regard? It means. So this is what the dictionary, uh does it says anger or annoyance provoked by what is perceived as unfair treatment? Ok. So I was like, but maybe that was, I didn't even think about like, what's base because whenever I hear bass today it's like you're based, like, you just have, like, what does bass mean today? Based being based? Mhm. What is it just having, I guess I take it as like having like actual, like, truth, like knowledge of the actual truth and not fairy tale world truths or the reality, like based in reality. Yeah. Yeah. So bass means lack of moral principles, bad character. The basis of human nature, wouldn't you say baseless? No, it'd be, yeah, if you're saying something outside of you, you, you know, you calling something base, you know, in the modern way of saying it, if you say something is base, you're saying it's evil. It's immoral source. Yeah. Never, never heard that before. Hm. Ok. Yep. So I figured, let's go ahead and get the words out of the way. What about those? How about this one? No. And I can't tell you what page it's on unfortunately here. But we're talking about in this one. Babylon Adam and Eve Genesis Revelation. And it says the of Revelation 17 to 18 and 20. What does ac mean famine catch them? I don't know. Um That was, oh, great. Ok. So you might have thought of it as the sizes. Yeah, because it is spelled A S si Z Yes. Yeah, you might have gone. Oh ac but it's ac A uh hold on. God's word is full of portrayals of divine art, attribution from the cursing of and, and cursing and banishment of Adam and Eve to overthrow to the overthrow of Babylon and the Great Yeah. Is that right? Did I say that? But of revelation? I mean, what do you think? I'm trying to look for? Like what revelations on? I guess the only thing I can think of is like um I don't know. Oh gosh, I came and put it into my words, right? That or how do you pronounce it? It says AC A CS like like you say it like this sounds weird. E Si Ze S ac ac. Oh Yeah. Why was I saying a Caesar? Because AC A S si Zes ac Yeah. Anyways. So what it means because you're probably not gonna get it at all. No, this is a reference back to the early bit like the 19 seventies era around that time in England, 1919 seventies. Yeah. So these were courts that were, that were held that administered civil and criminal law in Portland? Ok. So that's why, so it's saying like the courts of revelation 17, 18 20 you know, the judgments and all that. So that's what that's getting. Ok. The next word for Aaron. But as we go through this book, Anthropomorphic. Oh. it's like, it's like human character, human characteristics, sort of thingy. Um, yeah. Yeah. You're actually pretty. Right. Having human characteristics. Yeah. Yep. Ah, good job. I am impressed. But the book also kind of gave that away anyway. What about propitiation? Oh, jeez, that's, well, that's, that's wait because Christ is, isn't like Christ is our propitiation, right? It's like our there, like the substitute or the, um, right, because he's like, isn't it about like being him being like the sacrifice and, like, for our sins and stuff like that? Is, is that what that has to do with? Yeah. Yeah, you're close. Yeah. You're definitely close. So, appreciation. Um, that's the action of propitiating or appeasing a God spirit or person through a sacrifice to avert wrath or, and all that. So, that's what, so, yeah, I, I was wondering, I was like, does Aaron remember this or not from, from there? Ok. Ok. Ok. I'm feeling ok. Now I'm about to not feel, ok. No, I think you actually did very good. The last one and, and this one is more in line with the book Severity. God. Severity. Oh. So, um, so at first when I, when I was hearing, well, when I first read it I was thinking of like, um, or something being severe and like, an intense or, like, harsh. Yeah, you're right. But then there's also when, when, when in reading it he talks about like, um, the severity being like was us being cut off. Yeah. So then I almost read as being severed. No. So it's the severity, the being severe and he's being severe in the fact that we are cut off. So, so, yeah, you're right. I surprised myself. Look at that Aaron did well on his vocabulary segment. Now, the question that I have for Aaron and we'll see if he understands is and if he figures it out by the time we get there, what other book is referenced in this, these two chapters, uh specifically not chapter 15. Uh it's in chapter 16 that he references another book. Oh, the, the um sinners in the hands of an angry God. Well, no, he, he references that sermon directly. The sermon. OK. That's a, that's a sermon. I thought that's a book and some of them I made it into a book or something like that, but that he's referencing the sermon, but he references a book directly. So if you've read this book, what book does he reference as well? We'll get to that in a moment. So we'll get to that when we get to chapter 16. But as all things go, we must start first where at the beginning, which is chapter 15, the thing that Aaron said, he wasn't sure if he wanted, he was excited to talk about the wrath of God. It's terrifying. It's terrifying. Well, well, well, to be, let me put it, let me, let me put it this way. The fact that you say it's terrifying is a good thing. Mhm. Because that still means you're not hardened. I know. Yeah, that means you still fear the rest. Yeah. All right. Oh Yeah. Mhm So, so we start off with the definition of wrath. Oh, say, I actually, yeah, that's part of it. He says breath is an old English word defined as deep, intense anger and indignation. And then he goes on to define anger and indignation for you. Um But this is where he then goes into lament and says, well, the modern church kind of downplays with the rat and it, I'll say this as I'm reading through chapter 15, the entire thing that I kept thinking was, did he write this then in the seventies or did he write that now? Because it's, we're in the same kind of state, the same kind of boat different ways. But we're in that same area at this point which is a little sad. Um. Mhm. Unfortunately, and he asked a question, I thought about it and I had to think, and it took me a while to get back to a point in time when I've heard one. So his question was this, he goes, when was the last time you heard? When was the last time that, that you heard a sermon on the wrath of God? It took me a while to, to go back in time to figure, find that one. Even then I'm not 100% sure. I'd actually have to look through the recorded archives to see if that's actually the case or if it's actually something different. I'm not 100% sure. Yeah. I, I honestly don't remember. And it's not that any of the pastors from either of our church, uh Either of our churches are evil, horrible pastors or anything like that, or never touch on things on things like judgment. Yeah, that, you know, that we know of, ok, fair enough, you know, people can do stuff in, in private that is completely outside of the public facing character that we know of. Ok. But I'm saying as far as we are aware, you know, our respective pastors of our respective churches, um Even though that's not a thing that they necessarily preach on, they might touch on it once in a while, but they don't, they don't actually, like, get full bore into it. And I was thinking about that and I was like, yeah. And I was like, and the way our, um, snowflake generation is I could see that not going over that well, for a lot of, for a lot of people. Right. That's, that's something that bothers me though. Ok. Why is that? Like to, I don't know, like, in any just regular friendship or relationship sort of thing, like, you gotta say the tough stuff, I guess. I, it's one of those things where it's like, I mean, I, yeah, I imagine it would be very important because then it's like, without people knowing about the wrath of God, it's like, well, then what, what, what are we afraid of, what do we need this Jesus thing for? If there's nothing that, I guess in the sense, I mean, I guess, yeah, you'll say you're being, you're being saved from hell. But, I mean, nobody, I guess you always, I've always just, obviously, uh, what's, what's the word I'm associated that with? Like, you know, all, like the fire suffering, all that stuff, whatever. But it's like the thing about the wrath of God being poured out upon your heads, it's pretty intense. Yeah. So it's, but, yeah, it's like if you're not preaching about the outcome of a life without being saved by Christ, if people don't know what they're being saved from, then I've, yeah, it's important to have the whole truth in there. Right. And, and that's why I said, you know, I had to think back because while at, at least at the church I go to now. Right. They don't, well, they, I haven't heard there yet and I haven't even been there for a year yet. So, you know, we give it time on things. Ok. Yeah, I haven't heard of a full, like, sermon on Wrath or anything because they're pretty much, at least where I'm going at. Now they go, they take a book of the Bible and they go from front to end up on it right now. Right now we're going through Nehemiah, you know, an old old Testament book about rebuilding the walls of Jerusalem after they had fallen and, and all that. And, you know, it's a book cited a lot with leadership implications in that anyways. While wrath is not necessarily the central subject that they go on and preach on necessarily because, you know, they might talk about it in part if it's maybe part of a chapter so far. But, but, and here's the, but, and here's where I'm adding the butt in and this is why I said they touch on it. They don't do full on it every Sunday. And I mean, yeah, every Sunday since I've been there that I know and every Sunday since Andy's been there that since he's gone there and he's gone there a little bit longer than me. Every Sunday, the gospels preached at the end. Hm, every Sunday, the whole gospel and an invitation given every Sunday. Both services. That's cool. That's good. It does seem like that's a, so, that's why I said they don't necessarily assume like a common thing. What given the gospel every Sunday, or at least. Yeah. Having, I don't know. Ok, let's go back to, and, and I'm not, I'm not throwing shade or anything in, in, in common parlance of you youngsters. But, but I go back to fellowship and I go back to all the sermons there. Oh, yeah, there was the last time I remember the gospel, like an invitation being given was maybe twice a year. If I'm being honest, it wasn't that often the gospel was talked about. But the, uh, like the gospel and the invitation wasn't given every week. It, it was slightly different, you know, I, I guess, yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm already thinking of even just like the past, but I don't know, I don't know your current pastor. I don't know that, that, that, that's a whole other, that's what I said. Going back to fellowship days. That's, that's a whole different story. Um, that being said. So, like, um, the, the pastor at the church I'm at, and he, he's, he, he, he, he's brought the receipts on this, another common parlance from your generation showing the receipts where pastors will go. Why do you spend time given the gospel message every week? That is a very uncommon thing. Actually. That's not a very common thing to do. That's good. Thing is common for him. Ok. So that's what I said. He does. I don't, I haven't heard at this church yet. Uh, like a full message on wrath and that, but it's touched on some, every week, at least a little bit of it. Not long term, not, not long term, but there's a little bit of it but it, there's no, like straight. Ok, we're gonna do a whole sermon series or a whole just day sermon on this. Hm. So that's why I said even, you know. Yeah, it's not that like he said, he doesn't, I had to take time to think back on it to, to find a sermon. And even then that took me a while. Yeah. But, you know, think about it even then in our current culture, right? Our current culture doesn't, even, even in Christian circles doesn't even agree that hell exists. That's so weird. And a lot of them will say, well, hell is current earth and therefore they've lived their hell and therefore heaven. I don't understand how they come to that conclusion because they don't like the idea of eternal damnation. Hm. That's why they just love to have their own beliefs in their own mind. We want to be right. So, even at the very start, we're not even, uh, like page two of the book and of this chapter and already it's like, yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yeah. Well, and because pretty much I just had that little section underlined before that uh question was, you know, it says those who still believe the wrath of God and saying, obviously, not all do say a little about it as we have just said, uh perhaps they don't even think much about it. And I was like, I was kinda trying to reflect on myself. I'm like, yeah, until, you know, I started reading this, I was like, I never really thought much of it either because I never wanted to. Um and then goes to say like the church mumbles on about God's kindness but virtually nothing about his judgment. Yeah, that's, yeah, it's crazy how it's still to this day. That is very true after how many years. Oh I know and we keep going on and on and on about things. I liked this statement and I, I just kind of find it fun, this statement funny and I say funny kind of sarcastically, but that's good. It goes in the same sense that pilgrims progress might be called a book about Roads to hell. The Bible could be called the book of God's Wrath. For it is full of portrayals of divine retribution from the cursing and banishment of Adam and Eve in Genesis three to the overthrow of Babylon and the disease of revelations 17 through 18 and 20. Yeah. And then he makes a statement and then he asks a question and it's a rhetorical question and his statement is this, that the biblical writers have no inhibitions about talking about God's wrath. And, and the rhetorical question is why then should we, in other words, why do we feel like we can't talk about wrath and all that and going on? I was like, yeah. Mm Yeah. Um Backtracking a bit. Yeah. I thought it was interesting to see what is when he's talking about a w pink. Oh, yes. Um How he says uh there's a study of the Concordant will show that there are more references in scripture to the anger, fury, and wrath of God than there are to his love and tenderness. I never knew that I guess kind of case I want to go and like compare it with both of those and see, I didn't take the time to do that on this, but kind of interested to do that though. Yeah, I didn't do that either. And um I was like, I'm just taking your word for a W pink. I hope you ain't lying to me also. And, and here and here's where I will say this. It's also probably going to depend on what words are you using to talk about? Anger, fury, wrath and what translation are you using and what words maybe are they different between stuff? Because we know for example, Packer loves what version? Well, King James, he loves the King James almost always quoting King James in here and that's fine. There's nothing wrong with that. There's some inconsistencies with the translation, but it's not a bad translate. It's not like a horrible translation. Like the passion translation would be a horrible translation. So wouldn't there technically be some sort of inconsistencies with all translations to some degree? There might be like some wording choices, but there have been examples and don't want to go down this rabbit hole right now of things in the KGV that have like a different meaning, even if you try to change, change out the words then like more modern translations. And that might be due to some of the things such as not where maybe in the K GB or let me rephrase that for in the Bible, it might talk about something about like king ships and kings and that and maybe the K GB has changed those phrases around just a little bit. Really? Yeah, we can get into that later. But um yeah, it, it, there's some do some study on it. That's what I said. It's not a bad translation just uh there's some weird wordage there. Sometimes um I wouldn't consider a bad translation. I'd consider it a passion translation. A horrible translation, a very bad translation. I don't remember what the passion one was all like. Yeah, I don't even bother like it, it's a newer one and it's the work of one person and this person goes well, God revealed to me new meaning of this phrase and this, these words and Yeah. So his and whoever is the, who's the dude in China? I'm never gonna read his version of the Bible either. Oh, the CCP version? Is that what it is? It's not one dude, it's the government's version. Yeah. Yeah. OK. Yeah, I figured actually we talk about that next month. The CCP version. Awesome. Yeah. And maybe do some to see if we can get a hold of some of the comparisons. Like, for example, one of the things that they do is they change the 10 commandments around. Yeah. And they make the 10 commandments about being loyal to the party. Yeah, there's that one, there's the one where Jesus actually stones the woman. Yeah. So like the woman that was the woman called adultery. Yeah. Right. Yep. So there's some differences there that push the CCP moral standards. Yeah. In that. But yeah, I think we could talk about that next month because that'll take a little bit of time to do some comparison contrast. We're not gonna read the whole Bible in CCP event essentially, but we'll take a long time. Yeah, we'll take some passages and compare contrast and laugh a little bit because, oh boy, there's gonna be some things in there. Yeah. But there'll be some other things they, they're gonna know the wrath of God, unfortunately, hopefully, maybe not all of them. But yeah, I have some other ideas too that we'll talk about that. Later. OK. OK. Anyways, and so the next thing I have highlighted is under what God's wrath is like. OK. And this is where anthropomorphic comes, comes up. Yeah. So what I have highlighted is this, but when scripture speaks of God anthropomorphically, it does not imply that the limitations and imperfections which belong to the personal characteristics of us sinful creatures belong also to corresponding qualities in our holy creator. Rather it takes for granted that they do not. In other words, what it's saying here is that even though it talks about God in a human, in a human way, with human qualities, it does not imply human qualities onto God that God has his own qualities with human qualities intact as well. Mine is the sinful part. That's what it's saying, kind of what I was figuring. But I was like, I want to, I want to hit on that just to make sure that you understood that because I was like, yeah, that's interesting. Just how man, that's uh one, how he phrases and says things. I'm just like he says it at a high English level, at a very shian level. I don't give him that much credit. I know him. Sarcastic. I love you. Josh. Don't worry, I'll send this directly to Josh. This clip. Oh gosh. Oh yeah. This clip in the next clip when I'm hunting people in Tar. Don't talk. Oh my God. Oh, anyhow. Oh, back to God's wrath. Not my wrath. Jeez Louis, sorry that got me going out. Um Yeah. So now let me ask you this, Erin because I've had this question presented to me from people before because we're talking about God's wrath right now. The wrath of God, right? We're told very easily both through Bible preachers, et cetera. Anger can lead to sin. You can do stuff that you do that you don't, that you Yeah. Did you regret later in that? Right? What's the difference between wrath and human and wrath and God? How can God be angry and wrathful? How can he be? Yeah, and not sin. Wait a minute because I've, I've actually had this conversation with people before. Why can he be angry and have wrath towards his people, his people towards, towards anyone? I guess his creation, his creation. I mean, I what, I don't know, like to me, I guess how can he be? How can he be like is it, are you saying like, why can't he be or like how does he, how can he be? Because what, what, what and when I'm talking to these people, right? Essentially what they're trying to get at is, you know, they, they're saying that he's in the wrong for, for being angry, for being angry. Yeah, they're, they're, they're equating, being angry to being sinful. Well, can you not be angry at your Children? Well, this is what I'm asking you before we go into this one. I'm asking you what your thoughts on. Well, if you think about, for, for me, I guess, I guess as far as I've ever thought about it was ok. So he's created us, ok? And he has created, I mean, he's, that's the thing. He's so, he's perfect. And I said, so we sin against him. What is I, I guess being disciplining us, why is, I guess, I guess that's my thought is he's just one trying to discipline us to make it wake us up sort of thing. But what if you're just disciplining your kid? What if I'm just disciplining my kid? What do you mean? What if you, you're ok here in 10 years in the future? I have a child. You have five kids? Oh, jeez. I, I'll maybe do one. I'm Aaron in 10 years in the future. Has five kids. They just broke your favorite drum set. They burnt it, they burned, they found the matches and they found the gasoline and they want to see what happens and they burnt it and there's all this stuff for your favorite drum set that you bought from? Matt is a pile of ash. This is why I'm not having kids. Ok. So I guess this has, there has to be things I have to go into this though. It and you're like, I, it, did you see this? I mean, I would be very mad. Yes. Now, is that wrong of me to be mad? Is it? I guess in that regard, I, I would say for me as a human it would depend. Like, did they just do this? Really? Like, it's one of those things where it's like now, for me knowing I'm, I, if, if I ever had a kid I'd be like, you, you don't hurt, that don't wreck it. Be careful. Try not to damage it now. And I would understand if something did happen, accidents happen. It's ok. Your oldest son goes to your youngest son. I bet you you can't burn daddy's drum scene. Now, that's where I would be. I told you not to do this and you directly went against what I said in that regards, I'm angry that you would do that because that's doing something against me. Aaron Junior told Aaron the sixth to just burn it. Gosh, you name all your kids, Aaron. I wouldn't know what to do to, I guess discipline him other than I would be very angry, but you'd be probably irritable. Right? Irritable. I irritated by that. That just, that just happened. Oh, I'd be mad. Yeah. Yeah. Ok. But what would you be mad about? Let me ask that, which were mad about that they disobeyed you or that they damaged something that you cherished? Mm. I mean, to some degree both. Ok. Yeah, I would say both. Ok. I was just curious on that and I, I wasn't trying to like, take, take because it's like because now it's like that is gone. I'll never be able to enjoy that special drum set again. And Matt had just died the year before so you can get a new one. Oh, I mean, he, it's not that he'd be able to give me a new one anyways. There's only one like that one. Ok. Maybe we burn it just to get rid of the Lust and Aaron's Eye, there's no lust there. So he looks at his trumpet. It's pretty. Um, and I, I mean, it would be both things add to the fuel of anger that would arise. Yeah. So I guess it's acting. So let me ask this. Yeah, if you got irritated during that. Mhm. Would that be? And I, I'm not trying to be like Aaron, you're an evil person. Um, but would that be a sinful act if I got irritated or, I mean, is that just basically being mad? No, no difference. You can be irritated and you could be mad. Those are two different things. Ok. So what's being irritated then? Oh, let's see, irritated. Having, or showing the tendency to be easily annoyed to be easily? Ok, easily, easily annoyed or angry. But yeah, angered. Ok, because that's, oh, man, that's a tough thing because that I'm also not thinking about because how it talks about in the Bible says God is slow to anger. Yep. Oh, and they even talk about that in the, the book too? Yeah. Yeah. Well, you see, I get to, I go to all this, right? Because he says a couple sentences that kind of summoned all this up pretty well. Ok. Ok. I'm gonna read that, do it. Ok. He says, and this is right after the last part I highlighted thus God's love as the Bible views. It never leads him to foolish, impulsive, immoral actions in the way that its human counterpart too often leads us. And in the same way, God's wrath is anger in the Bible is never a capricious self indulgent, irritable, morally Igor thing that human anger so often is it is instead a right and necessary reaction to objective moral evil. So notice the ending there, what he's saying. He's saying this, it's a reaction to objective moral evil. Uh In other words, you know what you and God really is the only one who can define what is morally evil or right. It's morally evil. It's objectively moral evil. Not what irritates us, not, not what makes us upset because we didn't like their opinion or they destroyed our favorite drum set or stuff like that. It's objectively evil. Objectively evil would be slaughtering of Children. Objectively evil would be lying, objectively evil would be all those things, you know? Well, so I'm trying to think here. Yeah. Would, what would I guess, what would you, if you would consider it? So saying, yeah, I have, I have a son. Yeah, five sons, Aaron. Junior through Aaron six. They're all Aaron, they're all. Aaron C Johnson's. There's seven of you in the, in the room. I ain't nobody gonna have sanity in that house and their wife screams out your name and all of a sudden you go. Yeah, I was like, what? Well, we, we would have all done something. I can tell you that. Um, um, but like, so, yeah, Aaron the second tells Aaron the fifth. Well, it'd be Aaron Junior telling Aaron sixth. Which, yeah, whatever. Yeah. And, yeah, Aaron the fifth would be the second youngest. Aaron the sixth would be the youngest. Yeah, I was just giving random news. So we'll do the Aaron Junior the Aon the sixth. Um, telling him to purposely go burn down my drum set because he knows that I wanna take care of it and I don't want it damaged and ruined. Yeah. I mean, that would be, wouldn't that be an ob objectively evil thing to do? It says moral evil. Is that an objective, moral, evil? Moral? That that boy wouldn't see because it's, it's him wanting to cause hurt to somebody else or maybe it's just pain. Maybe it, well, maybe he doesn't want to necessarily cause pain. Maybe he just wants to see. Like, can I trick my brother into getting in trouble? Well, then that's being, he's deceiving his little brother. Yeah. So, I mean, that's still an evil thing to do. It's still evil. But the question is, is it objectively moral evil? I know that there's a fine line there. That seems weird. I know there's, there's that because that would be sinful for him to do anyways. Oh, I'm not, I'm not saying that it's, it's gonna be dismissive and he's not going to get that guy. I wanna be right in that regard. But I'm saying, but by doing that right. You know, God can get angry and not have those other things along the way that that would lead to the sin. Whereas us humans, we, we, we'll get angry much easier for us to get out of line with how we react. We'll get, we'll get angry and then take it over the limit. Take it over. Yeah, it's very much so easy. Well, obviously it's easier for us to do because we're the only ones that can do it and when we get emotional we get. Mhm. Um What, what would the, would the word irrational be usable in that? I don't know. We just get, yeah, we get out of line. We can easily get out of line. Yep. And make stupid decisions when we're angry. Yeah. Yeah. Why he still deserves to be punished? Yeah. Aaron the sixth and Aaron Junior, I'm sorry for you in the future. You don't burn down my drum set, how to play the matches. You're gonna get in trouble. Uh going on here. I will have grace for my Children if they're ever there. What about me? Yeah, you're like, yeah, what if it's a prank where we burned some random wood and pretended your drum set and I actually hit it somewhere. Gosh. Well, if I think it's my actual, I won't be mad if I think it's my actual one. But then when I find out it's not, I'll hopefully laugh about it. But then Aaron the Six is already scared of you. He's scarred permanently from the whipping that you gave him with your belt. I wouldn't give him a whipping for that. I said a whopping. Not a whipping uh whipping, whipping. I mean that is different. Yeah. Yeah. Actually using a whip would be very, it would be very bad. That'd be very bad. Yeah, that's, that's, yeah, I I ain't gonna do that. I'll Yeah, he was stern talking to that young man. So let me ask this because this is a couple of questions that the book asks as well here. Oh, no, he asked this would a God who took as much pleasure and evil as he did in good be a good God. He also asked, would a God who did not react adversely to evil in his world be morally perfect. Wait, what, where is it? It's right by what I just read there with that whole chunk there. So he says, would a God who did not react adversely to evil in his world be morally perfect and to uh I said to it's not Tozer, it's Packer Packer. It, Packer is very short and blunt with his answer. And his answer is two words. Surely not, surely not. And that's hard to think of sometimes in human form when we think of wrath and not in being wrathful without sin because that is very hard for us humans to do. Mhm. And he kind of addresses this a little bit in his book where he says to others, the thought of God's wrath suggests cruelty. They think perhaps of what they have uh been told about Jonathan Edwards famous gospel sermon, sinners in the hands of an angry God. Um If you haven't read that sermon, it's good to read. I don't know. And it's old, too old for, uh recording, obviously 17 41. So you're not gonna be able to listen to it. You actually gotta read. Uh. Oh, yep. Uh, but he talks about in that sermon Edwards uses the illustration that natural men are held in the hand of God over the pit of hell. And it's like, oh, yeah, there's some imagery there about that. Some most vivid furnace imagery. Yeah. Hm. And this again goes back to the current, even the current state of affairs where people go well, hell isn't real. I'm sorry, it very much is real as much as you may not like it, it is a reality. Exactly. So we have those. Right. Mhm. And then I have this thing uh highlighted God's wrath in the Bible is always judicial. Do you know what that means? What does that phrase mean God's wrath in the Bible is always judicial. I mean, it goes on to say that it is the wrath of the judge administering justice. Yeah, exactly. In other words, it's never for getting back. It's never for getting revenge. It's always for administering just justice in some way. Uh, even though we may as humans see it as something that is not um justice related. It is in the long term. Is there anything else that you had in here? Highlighted, noted uh that, that servant who knows his masters will and does not get ready or does not do what his master wants will be beaten with many blows. But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. That's right. Interesting. I'm trying to remember exactly where that is because I have a slightly different thing. But that's OK. Well, I guess at the end of the paragraph, it, um because it's near the end of it, uh says for from everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked, Luke 12 47 to 48. Yeah. So say that definitely is a New Testament Gospel reference there because definitely recognize that um Yep, I found it here. Yeah. Ok. Got you. That's, it's right at the end of that paragraph which I had originally highlighted there. So the next thing I have highlighted then is God's wrath in the Bible is something which people choose for themselves and reading through that. I was like, yeah, I can see a lot of people would disagree with that statement, what the people choose it. Yeah. I mean, yeah, I can understand that a lot of people would, but it's like you with anything though. I mean, you have a choice in the matter. How very anti Calvinist of you. What do you mean? What do you mean the Calvin? Because the, the, the strong Calvinist would say you have no choice in the matter. It's irresistible grace. They, they say, well, I mean, guess I would say God's grace it would be or should be irresistible. Yeah, but that's what I said to the strong Calman is, it's irresistible to the point of you have no choice. You're going to be saved or not, depending on God's will not on your choice on the matter. Which is funny. Well, I, I guess I'm thinking of it as far. I guess that would still be sort of the same thing where I'm thinking it's like, yeah, it is your choice whether or not you decide to. Mhm. Yeah, believe or reject. Yeah, I guess, you know, that is, I would say that that's why I, when I took the note of this because I was like, man, he's, he keeps flip flopping on his Calman here, uh on stuff. Um Because he writes in the next sentence before hell is an experience inflicted by God. It is a state for which a person himself opts by retreating from the light which God shines in his heart to lead him to himself. Like, so we do get a choice of, I like pecker. You lost the communism there. But I, that's fine that I, you know, I make, I, I make jokes about the Calvinist boy, he's a Packer but, you know, that's not a, and I'll be all that where we can't, um, we can't suffice together, you know, if, if that makes sense. What? Oh, oh, shoot. Oh, I guess. Yeah, I wonder. There's, there's like, oh, man. So now I'm having this all, like, does everybody in a sense get some sort of chance at some point? Do you accept or deny Christ throughout their life? That's a tough thing because depending on how you, I mean, obviously, depending on your household that you grew up in and all that stuff, you're going to have a very right, I guess. And like, you know, your mind is gonna be made up almost ahead of time on what you thought or reaction to God is going to be. But that's why there's the concept of, like, natural revelation and all that where it's even those who have never been preached to like, let's say they live in an untouched land where missionary has never been, where even they, they can be saved because the, the evidence of God and Christ is shown in nature and is so prevalent that even words are not needed in that regard in so much then that we don't as humanity have an excuse in our words. So even those who are maybe growing up in a, as you put it AAA difficult household, let's say, you know, for uh you know, Christianity to reach, it doesn't have to be a difficult, I mean, I grew up that sense of rich riches but then you just had never had the need or knowledge of who Christ is. That's why it's a difficult household for Christianity to reach not necessarily difficult household like struggling and abuse or it could be whatever your parents are strict atheist or whatever. OK? There is some way either through natural revelation or even through an interaction with someone where that will be potentially something that happens that they, they, they get that a chance essentially. Mhm So yeah, everyone, everyone's responsible. Yeah. Mm mm This is so convicting me. Well, then this next phrase. Yeah. Oh What, what the, what's your next phrase? The basic choice was and is simple either to respond to the summons, come to me, take my yoke upon you and learn from me. Matthew 11 28 or 29 or not either to save one's life by keeping it from Jesus's censure and resisting his demand to take it over or to lose it by denying oneself shouldering one's cross, becoming a disciple and letting Jesus have his own disruptive way with one. Hm. Which kind of sums that all up. That was, um, I'd say, I'd say within, yeah, within the last year. And it was actually after really chatting with one of the guys from, uh, the new church, I suppose. Yeah. Mhm. Um, well, I, I'm sure this probably isn't the first time I've ever heard it but maybe it's been the first time in a long time. Well, we've talked about like, you know, people staying in a life of sin, like if you're like, out and evangelizing the people or trying to tell people about Christ and they just outright reject it saying it's because that they, I mean, the, one of the, I guess you said mainly it's because they just love their sin and they love the things that they're currently already doing. And I, what made me think of that was, um, back in the middle of the paragraph just before, um, the basic choice was, was, and as simple, um, where it says light has come into the world, but men loved the darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. But I was singing, I was like, yeah, I was like, we really just do love doing bad to some degree. And so it's like the people that reject Christ or they just don't want to get rid of the things that are against God that they love doing. See, and, and here's the fun part and I say fun in quotes. Yeah, because in modern Christian circle, right? Yeah, someone can find a church that will uh how do I put this? Someone can find a church easily that will take whatever their sin is that, that you, you know, we, we'll say whatever it is. Ok. And so, yeah, it's good. It's ok. It's fine. It's getting harder and harder to find churches that, that are not affirming to things. I wouldn't either. Well, I guess, yeah, if you're not going speaking out against it, you're essentially, I'm not even saying, not speaking out against it. I'm talking about churches that are flat accepting and celebrating it. Well. Oh, well. Ok. Yeah. Even more so, yeah, I'm talking. So, you know, you, and you can take whatever example you want. Ok. Um, homosexuality, transgenderism, gay marriage, whatever you want. Yeah. Ok. There are churches out there nowadays that openly celebrate this. There are pastors out there. Um, so there was one I encountered online yesterday. Hm. That wrote a whole thread out there and I just sat there, I debated responding but I was like, you know, what, not even respond to give this person the time of day and, um, engagement on Twitter or X now as it's called X. Um, so interesting. Yeah. Uh, I, I was, like, not even worth giving him the interaction so that way it reaches more people sort of deal. But essentially he had a whole thread about how. So you remember Jonathan and David in the Old Testament real close? Right. Yeah. What? They're probably used as a homosexual couple, aren't they? Oh, yeah. According to this pastor they were married. Yeah. I was like, what, what, wait, wait, Whoa. Yeah. What? Exactly. And that, I was like, no, I'm not even gonna give this person time a day on this one. Oh, wow. Ok. Hm. So you have stuff out this, like I said, it's getting harder and harder actually to find church is just gonna say flat out. No, I know because there's, there's starting to become more and more that even you take whatever these things that you love and say, yes, you have stories out there and I say stories because unfortunately these are things of the, I can't believe these words even string together in a complete phrase. That makes sense in common parlance. The Christian only fans performer. Yep. Who says it's her ministry to do porn? Yeah. Ok. You have stuff like that. You have, like, what? I just talked about that pastor. Um, yeah, exactly. Ok. So I get what he's saying there. But unfortunately people can find churches that will. Well, yeah. But it, I guess, but as there is darkness, I know. But they find those churches. Right. Right. And then those churches go, well, you have a relationship with Christ now you da, da da and they'll reaffirm whatever it is and saying they can be both Christian and whatever. Well, I guess that's gonna have to come down to the responsibility of someone actually studying the Bible. Yep. I guess. Which, I mean, we're told to be doing anyways. So, gosh, in that regard. Yeah. They're being very, uh, well, what's the word? I mean, they're being led. Yeah, to help. Yeah, with that. And they're like, oh, it's so un loving that you say that I'm just like, I'm just sitting there on the side going, oh, boy, this is gonna be in the next few years. This is gonna be great. Let me tell you. Is that in this chapter, is that the next one we was talking about how, like, you know, each generation has its, uh, I guess it's, 00, wait, is it this one? Hm. But whereas it was saying like each generation is gonna have, it's like main or like big issue that comes up to deal with and all that kind of stuff. And I was thinking, I was like, yeah, for us it's gonna be all this transgender race reassignment or what, what's the, uh, surgery stuff and affirming care and it's only gonna get worse because now they, they're actually working on a way to do a, uh, a womb transplant. So, you can and, but they wanna put a woman's womb and do a man. Yep. So you can give birth. They're really desperate to make that work. Yep. They're really desperate and there's doctors working on it. We gotta have the cure for AIDS or something else. But no, we gotta work on that. That was, would we ever be able to find a cure for some of that stuff? What for AIDS? And I'm thinking like AIDS, cancer and, well, I mean, all, like the medication we got for, like AIDS out there, it makes it pretty manageable. It's not a pure cure, but it makes it pretty manageable for them. Hm. Well, I'm guess, yeah, with the amount of money that's dumped into stupid things. Yeah. If it was put in the right spot then I guess, yeah, I'm sure there'd be something that could be done. I'm just like, for some of the things that, like, I mean, you can't, it, well, like cancer is gonna be real hard because each type of cancer is different and even each type of cancer there might be different varieties of that. Um, might look really weird and then just gonna be genetics and, yeah, like, there's some things, I mean, well, that's the other thing you can't avoid death. Like, sorry, you're never going to create something that keeps you alive forever. We're all one second closer to death every second. Right. Yep. Let that keep you up at night now and some people have a much shorter timer. Ok. So, back to the book. Yes. Correct. Hanna. Oh, what is it? Where is that? Oh, God or sorry? I said it's Genna. Yes. But what else is it really? It's the valley outside Jerusalem where rubbish was burned? Do you want me to finish that? No, that, that's fine. Um. Oh, ok. I was like, because, yeah, there's, yeah, there's just more that goes on after that. But yeah, so it, it, it's talking about, you know, Jesus uses imagery in his own stuff and he's talking about and that's how some people will also say, well, hell isn't real because he's using imagery here. So just, just that why I just want to bring that up. Ok. Um And then was there anything else be before Romans on wrath? Anything besides before, before? No. Ok. So then we get into where he talks about Romans on wrath and he makes, was it, is it four points, three points, I think 33 points and the three points I don't know if you have anything highlighted here, but I'll quickly highlight the three points here. Um The first one is the meaning of God's wrath and he goes the wrath of God and Romans denotes God's resolute action in punishing sin. Uh The second thing is the revelation of God's wrath. The wrath of God is revel revealed from heaven against all un godlessness and unrighteousness of men. Who hold down the truth and unrighteousness. And the third point that He has is the deliverance from God's wrath. And he goes in the first three chapters of Romans Paul is concerned to force on us this question, if the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all un godlessness and unrighteousness of men and a day of wrath is coming. When God will render to every man according to his deeds, how can any of us escape disaster? The question presses because we are all under sin. And then he highlights his point. The law cannot save us for its only effect is to stimulate sin. Oh, I was like, wait, what? Yeah. So I don't know if he had anything highlight in those little three points there. Uh It was the section that you just read for 0.3 and then 0.2 I just underlined uh the Romans 1 19 through. Well, uh actually would be what 1 24 26 and 28 or says God gave them over to sexual impurity. God gave them over to shameful lusts and he gave them over to a depraved mind. Yep. Hm. And that's, I imagine from that, that's, that's the, you're at a point of no return right there. And the funny thing is the Packer wrote that then and looking at that around the world around him at that point in time, can you imagine what he would say to the today's day? And age. Hm. Far worse. Yep. Yeah. And then he ends up with this, um, he calls it the solemn reality. Um, the thing I highlighted from this was this, the more we study and ponder God's abhorrence of sin and his frightful vengeance upon us, the more likely we are to realize its heinousness. Hm. Hm. And that was written by, that was written by, um, a w pink in his book, The Attributes of God. Oh, ok. I see. Mhm. I had the part just before that underlined. Whereas nor, uh nor will our evangelism have the urgency enjoyed? Oh, eno, enjoyed, enjoyed by jude. So save some by them out of the fire. Neither our knowledge of God nor our service to Him will be in accord with his word. Mhm. Mhm hm. So that is Packer talking about wrath.